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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 1:32:16 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

but but but.....if your blind date decides to give you a surprise kiss at the front door and you have chapped lips and your lips break open and bleed...is it now assault?




That could come under an occasioned incident

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 2:01:34 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


You're right for the majority of Brits.

But.... you can't assume that stance fits all.
Some people are just not that way inclined.

And remember, physical contact doesn't have to take place to be done on an assault charge of any description.
The point I'm making here is that it is unwise to assume that everyone is reading from the same page when it comes to this type of activity.
Always err on the side of caution and play it safe - just don't do it!!

As for the GBH issue, I said in my post 'attempted GBH', not actual GBH.


And my stepson has been prosecuted for just that crime only last year.
No blood was drawn in the incident (he slapped his sister round the face - it just left a red mark).
Fortunately he got away with being in the cells overnight and a caution.





Thats because they couldn't continue with the charge of attempted GBH. That was common assault or aggravated assault. Both common assault and aggravated assault can be charged under 'attempted GBH' if the offender threatened the life of the person he assaulted. Getting a charge like that to stick for a slap on the face and a threat of murder would be very difficult though especially when its family related. Every lawyer in the land would tell you not to go down the attempted GBH route.

I just wanted to point out that GBH and attempted GBH is an extremely serious allegation that will nearly always be dealt with in Crown Court. You mentioned that a person could be had up for attempted GBH for tapping someone on the shoulder or hugging them without their permission. I say, show me a single case where this happened and I will gladly go away and eat my keyboard.




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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 3:46:00 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Thats because they couldn't continue with the charge of attempted GBH. That was common assault or aggravated assault. Both common assault and aggravated assault can be charged under 'attempted GBH' if the offender threatened the life of the person he assaulted. Getting a charge like that to stick for a slap on the face and a threat of murder would be very difficult though especially when its family related. Every lawyer in the land would tell you not to go down the attempted GBH route.

Actually, those charges were brought by the police that came up and arrested him, not by me or his sister.
And the reason they charged him with that rather than common assault was because he did threaten to kill her while they were dragging him out of the house to their patrol car - in cuffs.
He was also charged with resisting arrest and obstructing an officer in the course of his duty. But they dropped those after he'd spent the night banged up in the police cells.
And, he only got away with it because he was still under 18 and his first such offence.

He's now living back with his dad but I think he's going to be trouble later in life.


The whole point of this thread is inappropriate touching.
To me, I shouldn't need to have a neon sign above my head telling everyone that I'm not a huggy type person and to steer clear.
That assumption should be a given unless my body language (or words) indicate otherwise.
The fact that we have a law for it would indicate that there are far more than just the odd individual (like me) that object to being assaulted under the auspices of a so-called 'friendly' greeting.

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 4:00:30 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Thats because they couldn't continue with the charge of attempted GBH. That was common assault or aggravated assault. Both common assault and aggravated assault can be charged under 'attempted GBH' if the offender threatened the life of the person he assaulted. Getting a charge like that to stick for a slap on the face and a threat of murder would be very difficult though especially when its family related. Every lawyer in the land would tell you not to go down the attempted GBH route.

Actually, those charges were brought by the police that came up and arrested him, not by me or his sister.
And the reason they charged him with that rather than common assault was because he did threaten to kill her while they were dragging him out of the house to their patrol car - in cuffs.
He was also charged with resisting arrest and obstructing an officer in the course of his duty. But they dropped those after he'd spent the night banged up in the police cells.
And, he only got away with it because he was still under 18 and his first such offence.

He's now living back with his dad but I think he's going to be trouble later in life.


The whole point of this thread is inappropriate touching.
To me, I shouldn't need to have a neon sign above my head telling everyone that I'm not a huggy type person and to steer clear.
That assumption should be a given unless my body language (or words) indicate otherwise.
The fact that we have a law for it would indicate that there are far more than just the odd individual (like me) that object to being assaulted under the auspices of a so-called 'friendly' greeting.



the law you reported early doesn't say that, so can you show the right one?

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 4:10:42 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
the law you reported early doesn't say that, so can you show the right one?

Which law are you refering to??

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 5:20:45 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

The whole point of this thread is inappropriate touching.
To me, I shouldn't need to have a neon sign above my head telling everyone that I'm not a huggy type person and to steer clear.
That assumption should be a given unless my body language (or words) indicate otherwise.
The fact that we have a law for it would indicate that there are far more than just the odd individual (like me) that object to being assaulted under the auspices of a so-called 'friendly' greeting.



The law is a farce though freedomdwarf, especially when it comes to things like this. Its like a bundle of wool a kittens been playing with... unravelling it will be challenging, even for the keenest of detectives.

I agree that we should be more aware of body language before we approach people. I know two people with Aspergers and I wouldn't dream of giving them a hug or even a tap on the shoulder because I know it would bother them.

Your reaction is quiet interesting because its a wake up call to all of us who have become very comfortable and feel safe handing out hugs or cheek kisses to everyone we like or are being introduced to. You have certainly given me food for thought regarding reading other peoples body language, not because I fear legal action but because I wouldn't want to make someone feel angry or uncomfortable unnecessarily from what I consider a friendly gesture.


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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 5:48:02 AM   
chatterbox24


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Status: offline 		Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww come on lets have a group hug, you might like it.

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 5:49:50 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

The whole point of this thread is inappropriate touching.
To me, I shouldn't need to have a neon sign above my head telling everyone that I'm not a huggy type person and to steer clear.
That assumption should be a given unless my body language (or words) indicate otherwise.
The fact that we have a law for it would indicate that there are far more than just the odd individual (like me) that object to being assaulted under the auspices of a so-called 'friendly' greeting.



The law is a farce though freedomdwarf, especially when it comes to things like this. Its like a bundle of wool a kittens been playing with... unravelling it will be challenging, even for the keenest of detectives.

I agree that we should be more aware of body language before we approach people. I know two people with Aspergers and I wouldn't dream of giving them a hug or even a tap on the shoulder because I know it would bother them.

Your reaction is quiet interesting because its a wake up call to all of us who have become very comfortable and feel safe handing out hugs or cheek kisses to everyone we like or are being introduced to. You have certainly given me food for thought regarding reading other peoples body language, not because I fear legal action but because I wouldn't want to make someone feel angry or uncomfortable unnecessarily from what I consider a friendly gesture.


That particular law is quite interesting and I believe it all started when our school teachers were starting to be taken to court over classroom punishments when some kids got seriously hurt, or when some teachers were hospitalised because some unruly kids were getting out of hand and throwing chairs and stuff at the teachers.
When I was at school, teachers frequently threw chalk sticks or the blackboard eraser when someone wasn't paying attention or disrupting the class in some way.
I can't recall anyone at my school ever being seriously hurt (they were damned accurate!) but I can imagine that some kid could easily be blinded by such actions.

That aside, my particular aversion came about because my stepdaughter is definitely a huggy person and comes over to give me a hug when I'm trying to type or use the mouse or otherwise busy. It's bloody infuriating!
It's not easy to type or pour a cuppa when someone clamps their arms around you and pecks you on the cheek.
She's not content with just a hello and hug when she comes in - it's every 5-10 minutes!! Grrrrr!
She does it with everyone and I have to keep reminding her that not everyone likes it or wants it.

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 5:51:20 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

In the UK, any uninvited personal contact can be considered a crime.
Technically, even that innocent tap on the shoulder prior to "excuse me" can get you prosecuted under various degrees of assault charge from simple assault through assault and battery to aggravated assault and even attempted GBH (grievious bodily harm).
That may sound laughable but it is the law here.

...
quote:


You think I'm joking??
"An assault is legally defined as an intentional reckless action causing a person to fear or expect personal violence or immediate unlawful force. An assault can therefore be deemed to take place where there has not been any physical contact, but there is a fear or expectation of violence. Battery is where someone has intentionally or recklessly inflicted unlawful force or personal violence on another. 

An offence of assault is tried in the magistrates' court, with a maximum fine of up to £5,000 and/or six months' imprisonment. 
If there is a racial element to the assault, the individual may be charged with racially aggravated assault under Section 29 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998."


I don't know where you were quoting from but I read "intentional reckless action causing a person to fear or expect personal violence or immediate unlawful force" not an action that bothers or upset the other person, but a something that implicates violence or a threat, and a gesture of care and affection is by definition not intimidating, this says that an assoult doesn't implicate contact but any act of threat, while telling that "even that innocent tap on the shoulder prior to "excuse me" can get you prosecuted under various degrees of assault" you are telling something different from what is wrote in what I assume is the law you were talking about.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 9/9/2013 5:58:26 AM >

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 6:01:22 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww come on lets have a group hug, you might like it.


            
    

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 6:02:29 AM   
chatterbox24


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww come on lets have a group hug, you might like it.


            
    



ALright party pooper!!!! I can respect that.

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 6:11:14 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
....and a gesture of care and affection is by definition not intimidating,

To you, it's a gesture of care and affection.

To me, it's a gesture of infringing upon my personal space that you weren't invited to.
Ergo, I'm feeling I wanna inflict a lot of harm upon your person for daring to take such a liberty.

This is where such assumptions are not universal.

If you came up to me with that typical greeting and I didn't know you from adam, I'd hit you square in the eyes and maybe even a knee in the groin before you got close enough to hug me.

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 6:22:10 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
....and a gesture of care and affection is by definition not intimidating,

To you, it's a gesture of care and affection.

To me, it's a gesture of infringing upon my personal space that you weren't invited to.
Ergo, I'm feeling I wanna inflict a lot of harm upon your person for daring to take such a liberty.

This is where such assumptions are not universal.

If you came up to me with that typical greeting and I didn't know you from adam, I'd hit you square in the eyes and maybe even a knee in the groin before you got close enough to hug me.



I'm sure there is a law against what you would do:

"An assault is legally defined as an intentional reckless action causing a person to fear or expect personal violence or immediate unlawful force. An assault can therefore be deemed to take place where there has not been any physical contact, but there is a fear or expectation of violence. Battery is where someone has intentionally or recklessly inflicted unlawful force or personal violence on another.

An offence of assault is tried in the magistrates' court, with a maximum fine of up to £5,000 and/or six months' imprisonment.
If there is a racial element to the assault, the individual may be charged with racially aggravated assault under Section 29 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998."

and "infringing upon my personal space" is not a violent act or that implies violence by itself, so if you are not just exagerating to make a point where you have none go to an anger mangemet therapist 'cos you need it.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 9/9/2013 6:25:34 AM >

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 6:52:24 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
....and a gesture of care and affection is by definition not intimidating,

To you, it's a gesture of care and affection.

To me, it's a gesture of infringing upon my personal space that you weren't invited to.
Ergo, I'm feeling I wanna inflict a lot of harm upon your person for daring to take such a liberty.

This is where such assumptions are not universal.

If you came up to me with that typical greeting and I didn't know you from adam, I'd hit you square in the eyes and maybe even a knee in the groin before you got close enough to hug me.



I'm sure there is a law against what you would do:

"An assault is legally defined as an intentional reckless action causing a person to fear or expect personal violence or immediate unlawful force. An assault can therefore be deemed to take place where there has not been any physical contact, but there is a fear or expectation of violence. Battery is where someone has intentionally or recklessly inflicted unlawful force or personal violence on another.

An offence of assault is tried in the magistrates' court, with a maximum fine of up to £5,000 and/or six months' imprisonment.
If there is a racial element to the assault, the individual may be charged with racially aggravated assault under Section 29 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998."

and "infringing upon my personal space" is not a violent act or that implies violence by itself, so if you are not just exagerating to make a point where you have none go to an anger mangemet therapist 'cos you need it.

It has nothing to do with anger management.

I am perfectly within my legal rights to defend my personal space when people are NOT explicitely invited to invade it.
Or can't you see that what you accept as the 'norm' doesn't fit everyone?

We have laws for such eventualities and I would definitely use them to their fullest extent if someone I didn't know assaulted me in such a manner.
And no, I'm not exaggerating just to make a point.
I really would punch you in the face if you tried to greet me in that way when I didn't know you.
And just as a FYI, the law would back me if I did (because I've actually had someone charged for just that and they got fined for 'aggravated assault' even though it was me who hit them).

quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
...and "infringing upon my personal space" is not a violent act or that implies violence by itself...

It is, if that violence is forthcoming from the recipient and not the aggressor.

You would be deemed as the originating aggressor by such infringement (it's called provocation).
And as I said above, I am entitled to defend such infringement by whatever force I deem necessary.
In the UK, I am not allowed to use deadly force but I can inflict enough force to -
1) Prevent you from transgressing the law;
2) Hold and detain you for arrest and prosecution by the authorities.


Like something mentioned somewhere else.... people that don't know you that address you as 'my dear'.
How dare you use a term of endearment to me as a stranger!!
I find that extremely condescending and an absolute insult.
You are not entitled to address a stranger in such a personal and intimate manner.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 9/9/2013 7:02:38 AM >

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 7:19:14 AM   
eulero83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

In the UK, I am not allowed to use deadly force but I can inflict enough force to -
1) Prevent you from transgressing the law;
2) Hold and detain you for arrest and prosecution by the authorities.


ok so please can you cite the uk's law that says that getting too close to someone is forbidden because if there is none you are not preventing any law to be transgressed, or the one that says that a hug is a justificable provocation for a violent response? Would you react like this also if someone approach with his hand for a hadshake? Are there any real case you can quote where no threat to personal safety but just personal space invasion was accepted as justification for a violent reaction?

Is there anyone in the uk that can confirm this?

I want to make smething clear I'm not huggy and for sure I won't be comfortable with hugging another male, so it's not my case.



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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 7:27:30 AM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		Sorry for not acknowledging the response earlier, since you quoted Me, Freedomwarf. That was a very interesting bit about how the law deals with the subject in the UK. To the best of My knowledge, we don't have anything that aggressive for what I'll call 'casual contact' on this side of the pond. We are way worse (meaning, OMG don't) when it comes to touching people in the workplace. Darn near anything can be twisted into sexual harassment to the point of being so ridiculous that it would just make your head hurt. But in social settings, a hug wouldn't be a criminal charge.

Thanks to you and Maria for the bit of education. It was interesting.


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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 8:25:07 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eulero83
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
In the UK, I am not allowed to use deadly force but I can inflict enough force to -
1) Prevent you from transgressing the law;
2) Hold and detain you for arrest and prosecution by the authorities.


ok so please can you cite the uk's law that says that getting too close to someone is forbidden because if there is none you are not preventing any law to be transgressed, or the one that says that a hug is a justificable provocation for a violent response? Would you react like this also if someone approach with his hand for a hadshake? Are there any real case you can quote where no threat to personal safety but just personal space invasion was accepted as justification for a violent reaction?

Is there anyone in the uk that can confirm this?

I want to make smething clear I'm not huggy and for sure I won't be comfortable with hugging another male, so it's not my case.

I quoted the bit of law earlier on and you quoted it back at me later.
It's the Crime and Disorder Act, 1998.

But, like many people who accept this type of behaviour as normal, they are missing the point entirely.

It's not the fact that you are invading my space with a mind or intention of harming me.
It's not the fact that being close to someone is forbidden or illegal.
It's actually quite the opposite.

I'm taking the case of the hug and/or peck on the cheeks as a 'friendly' way of greeting.
Let me try to explain...
What you call an innocent friendly greeting, I see that as an overtly over-friendly and unnecessary way to greet someone you don't know and could conceivably be construed as having sexual overtones.
Either way, someone being 'over friendly' towards someone else when that particular attention wasn't explicitely invited or sought, constitutes assault and/or harassment.
So... someone being over-friendly towards me when an extended hand for a hand-shake would more than suffice, is certainly bordering on harassment and I perceive that as a prelude to provocation and possible physical assault. To a non-huggy person, receiving that unwarranted physical contact is definitely an assault as I didn't invite you to do so.
Part of that law is the perception of impending assault that empowers the recipient (me) to use whatever force I deem necessary to prevent that physical assault from actually happening.

So, I am legally allowed to punch you in the face, or knee you in the groin, or any other physical violence/force that I feel is necessary to prevent you from that act of physical assault you are about to inflict upon me, uninvited.

There are no end of successful cases where even the slightest unwarranted 'advances', even non-contact situations, where women have prosecuted male colleagues/bosses for assault and/or sexual harassment in the workplace. And these are situations where the people actually know each other!
So that law can easily be applied to people that don't know each other in a similar way.

Quite simply put, unless I actually invite you to be cuddly/touchy-feely/kissy/huggy or otherwise more intimate than a hand-shake, I am well within my rights, legally, to prevent you from being over-friendly with me.

Simples! 



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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 9:06:37 AM   
eulero83


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Status: offline 		can you just find an actual case, reported in some sort of news or online source, where someone is being condamned, not only sued, for using an overly friendli approach, and I mean just an approach not insisting after a first refusal, because if someone is overly friendly with me and I'm not ok with that I just say "sorry I'm not a huggy person" and place my palm between me us to stop, 90% of casses it's all solved if that person keeps pushing I'll push back with more force and ask that person to avoid me, and the other 10% of cases is solved. Every other reaction by me would be an excess of defense.
In that law there is not written what you say, if it's an interpretation, you should cite some sentences.

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 9:09:04 AM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		Freedomdwarf: how often do strangers on the street come up to you and hug you? Because that's never happened to me. People I've met doing a peck on the cheek when greeting or leaving, certainly. But total strangers?

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RE: Inappropriate touching - 9/9/2013 9:17:47 AM   
eulero83


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Status: offline 		he said also tapping the shoulder and telling "excuse me" or being called darling among aggressive behaviour, this happens more often, I still don't see how it can justifie a sucker-punch in the face.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 9/9/2013 9:18:23 AM >

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