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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 7:20:19 AM   
FeralFoxy


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That was not my point. If your friend is fine with calling you bio, that's great. But other people (Like the op, it seems) are not ok with that. How your friend likes to be addressed and the trerms she likes to use are her business. How other people like to be addressed is theirs. I would hope that you would not continue using a term that people find upsetting, when speaking with people who have made it clear that they find it upsetting. I was merely offering an alternative term for when you find yourself in that situation. Personally, I tend to say cis (as I'm very active in the local trans community) but am not bothered by people saying bio. But in my local trans community, I am not the norm in being ok with it.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 7:29:08 AM   
LadyConstanze


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I think it might be also a regional thing, having heard used bio by TG friends on my side of the pond, it was just something I used, as I thought they wouldn't use a term they find offensive. I'm glad to learn a new term and I wasn't too serious about the PC term, it would be a joke I would make to my friend, as I am fine with however she wants to label me.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 7:58:44 AM   
Youmahh


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I think the therapy part shouldn't be omitted, but it shouldn't be lengthy when it's not needed, either.

I think partially some of the post-op regrets stem from inflated fantasy of how things would be post-op. That all problems go away, that every day is heels and short skirts, that all the feminine curves just suddenly land in all the right places (hah i wish all the feminine fat landed on me only where it's sexy!). Very often it seems also that there is a lot of disappointment that life didn't change to the imagined cartoon version of a female life.

Same goes really for cosmetic surgery too. There are women that imagine that with the boobjob and liposuction, suddenly heads will turn on the beach, men come falling from the sky, and every day is bikini weather thereafter.

Essentially all the boring, everyday problems remain. The body changes to represent self-image better, which in itself can help to deal with self-esteem problems. All the other people around will still be the same though.

< Message edited by Youmahh -- 3/13/2014 8:01:27 AM >

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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 8:03:27 AM   
evesgrden


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Being trans is socially dangerous. Being a gorgeous woman can be socially dangerous too. Just being female is socially dangerous. Being ugly can be socially dangerous too. I'm not equating the distress of being trans with these other situations, but societal threats are no reason for surgery. You need a diagnosis. Without a diagnosis who would do the surgery?

Life altering surgery aimed at alleviating distress is not something a doctor will (or should) enter into lightly. Let's say I fall in love with a guy who is gay.. but this ends up being (obviously) a one-way street. I am in despair but rich. So I go to a surgeon, say I'm trans so that I can get SRS. I have signed the consent form. I don't need a therapist. I KNOW that if I have the surgery, my gay amour will now love me and we'll live happily ever after. All I have to do is say I'm trans. No assessment or diagnosis needs to be made by anyone else but me right?

I don't think so.

Let's say I'm honestly trans and I have money and want SRS. But I'm also severely bi polar and have wild emotional swings where one day I'm convinced that I want something marvelous out of life and the next week everything sucks, and I hate everyone. How do you think hormones will play out in someone who's emotionally on thin ice.... all the time? What about the transition itself and dealing with surgery?

But no, that person just needs the surgeon, the cash, and an informed consent form.

Going back to childhood in this type of situation yields important information with respect to whether this is something that has been a recently acquired interest or is something longstanding even if it had been latent.

What responsible surgeon would cut into someone without a referral from some sort of health care practitioner who is qualified to both diagnose and assess psychological and emotional stability? The purpose is not to prevent those who would benefit from the surgery from getting it, but rather to make sure the patient is eligible.

You can't get bariatric surgery without pre-operative counseling. The need for surgery is visually apparent in this case. Counseling is a pre and post requisite. It's elective surgery. Morbidly obese people are picked on, abused, bullied etc etc. And it will kill you without intervention and that has nothing to do with society. You can be rich, and you'll still need to be assessed psychologically. The diagnosis is apparent.

The emotional readiness and wherewithal to deal with what's coming is yet to be determined.

And even though it is a medical condition with very clear symptoms and a very dire prognosis, it is not covered by insurance either.

An evaluation ensures that you are:
1. able to make such a decision
2. understand the consequences of your decision
3. have no underlying psychological conditions that would prohibit you from adhering to the life changes that are required following surgery.

Number 3 is the biggie.



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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 8:15:05 AM   
LadyConstanze


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I don't know what happened in the past 4 or 5 years exactly, but I'm not under the impression that the therapy part is completely omitted, counselling still happens but it's more a preparation for what will happen to you during hormone therapy (one TG I know really started behaving weirdly once she started to get hormones, she was seriously behaving like a teenager, flaunting everything and being overly flirty, mood changes from hell...), the social transition with the legal process involved, the whole risks about the gender reassignment surgery.

There is also counselling for people who are somewhat gender fluid (if I'm using the wrong word, somebody please correct me) of feel caught in between genders, not everybody falls into the drawer of "I am trapped in a body of the wrong sex all the time", a lot of people live their lives as males but feel the urge to be female in their private lives, they don't want to change completely, it's not just a kink for them, it's a very strong urge for them and the therapy helps them to accept themselves, to manage those urges without feeling guilty and dealing with depression.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 8:28:18 AM   
FeralFoxy


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And what life changes do you think should be required after surgery? I am ftm. I love nail polish, pretty clothes, skirts, sequins, and makeup. I have not yet decided if I will be keeping my vagina, but I am leaning towards keeping it. By many people's definition, including more than one therapist, I am not really trans because I don't fit the binary. But it isn't up to them to decide who and what I am. I know I need hormones and top surgery, and that I will probably stop there. I know this, because I am an adult who is capable of making his own healthcare decisions.

Should a referral be required for surgery? Sure. But a simple visit to your pcp for bloodwork and a basic physical should be the only requirement for that. The requirement for a referral from a mental health professional exists because being transgender is still classified as a mental illness, just as homosexuality was not so long ago. If you understood what daily life is like for us, you would understand that just being trans weeds out people who aren't really trans, or.who are just questioning. The whole "a professional needs to decide so you don't make a mistake" thing is a load of BS, a line that society is still being fed to justify the treatment of trans people as insane or damaged. What therapy actually does is make the process hellish for many, and inaccessable for many others. I get my support from the local trans group, no cis stranger needed. For those who don't have a local trans group, accessable, affordable therapy would be great. While they transition. Not as a requirement to start.

But this thread has been derailed too far, and I feel I should bow out. Anyone who is interested in discussing and being educated on trans topics is welcome to pm me. As you can tell, it's a subject that I'm passionate about.

< Message edited by FeralFoxy -- 3/13/2014 8:29:12 AM >


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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 10:51:53 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittysbell

theres this constrained power women who practice etiquette hold,and im sure its through understanding and utilizing certain disadvantages to our advantage that that comes about. composure,is, what i seek.



Leaving aside the issues with you wanting a free ride, what you seek isn't realistic.

You have this very clear picture in your head of the woman you wish to be, but the problem with that is that you're presenting that image as if that is what a woman is.
It's not. Women are different.

My mother never taught me not to spit, nor do I 'have the constrained power of a woman who practices etiquette' and neither do most modern day women. Yet, you're expecting somebody else to step in, and force you to learn how to be your definition of what a woman should be, when it may very well be that their definition of a woman is totally different from yours.

The image you have in your head of the type of woman you wish to be is yours alone. Nobody knows that image. Nobody knows it's details. Nobody but you can help you become THAT woman.

Sure, some people might be able to help you learn some things, but it won't make you into that woman you have in your head. Only you can do that.

You say you lack constraint? Then why are you waiting for somebody else to impart constraint upon you? Go out there and practice being constraint, because that's the way little girls learn it: they practice and fail, practice and fail, practice and fail until they get it right. Why do you need somebody else to chid you for failing at being constraint when they don't even know how you feel you ought to be behaving? Set your own standards, and when you fail them YOU chid yourself. Nobody else can do that for you. Nobody but you can make you into the woman you wish to be.

You are shoving responsibility for your own behavior off unto other people. You're implying that because you're a woman, you need to be taught by other people what type of person you ought to be, and frankly, I resent you for that. *I* grew up with a mentally unstable mother and a father who was never home. I didn't get the finer arts of etiquette and behavior, constraint, or even self-control and self-reliability imparted on me at home.

And you know what I did? When I was a young adult, I came to the conclusion that I didn't like the person I was due to the habits I had gotten through my upbringing. So I made up a picture in my head of the woman *I* wanted to become, and I set out to become that person. I didn't sit around waiting for somebody else to come along and teach me. I didn't assume that because my parents had failed to mold me into the person I wanted to be it was now somebody else's responsibility to make sure that it happened. *I* went out there and changed myself.

It was and is, a long ongoing process, and I don't even know if I'll ever be satisfied with who I become. As I change, the image of who I want to be keeps evolving as well, but at the same time, I'm getting closer and closer to my ideal self every day.

If I can do that, so can you. Especially if you're a woman, cause Lord knows there are few things in this world as stubborn as a woman who sets her mind on something...

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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 12:06:48 PM   
evesgrden


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My mistake, I was still thinking about the bariatric example and it should have read:

have no underlying psychological conditions that would worsen or conflict with adapting to the life changes as a result of surgery.


The following is quite arguably apples and oranges, but a Finnish study of the cause of death among women who had breast implants surprisingly showed an excess of suicide. Yes apples and oranges, but Finland is about as tolerant as one can get, yet the dysphoria resulting in the need for surgery to make one happy literally within one's own skin ... in the long term didn't really help.

I am not arguing against SRS at all. But the risk of unrealistic expectations causing even greater distress post-op should not be underestimated.. and advisably assessed prior to surgery. Yes it's your body and you should be able to do what you want to it. It's yours.

but... check this out:
http://www.peter-ould.net/2013/11/13/transgender-mortality-rates/



The causes? Maybe support isn't there after the fact. Maybe having new parts doesn't change society's behavior in the way it was expected. Maybe post-op the patient doesn't end up feeling differently abut themselves or doesn't see in the mirror what they were hoping to see. Maybe lifelong hormones is no picnic. Maybe the pool of potential partners is drastically smaller than originally anticipated.

I don't know. But the data is scary and not assessing for risk factors in advance as well a providing counseling post-op is negligent in my book.

The suicide rate as well as suicide attempts data should be part of informed consent.










quote:

ORIGINAL: FeralFoxy

And what life changes do you think should be required after surgery? I am ftm. I love nail polish, pretty clothes, skirts, sequins, and makeup. I have not yet decided if I will be keeping my vagina, but I am leaning towards keeping it. By many people's definition, including more than one therapist, I am not really trans because I don't fit the binary. But it isn't up to them to decide who and what I am. I know I need hormones and top surgery, and that I will probably stop there. I know this, because I am an adult who is capable of making his own healthcare decisions.

Should a referral be required for surgery? Sure. But a simple visit to your pcp for bloodwork and a basic physical should be the only requirement for that. The requirement for a referral from a mental health professional exists because being transgender is still classified as a mental illness, just as homosexuality was not so long ago. If you understood what daily life is like for us, you would understand that just being trans weeds out people who aren't really trans, or.who are just questioning. The whole "a professional needs to decide so you don't make a mistake" thing is a load of BS, a line that society is still being fed to justify the treatment of trans people as insane or damaged. What therapy actually does is make the process hellish for many, and inaccessable for many others. I get my support from the local trans group, no cis stranger needed. For those who don't have a local trans group, accessable, affordable therapy would be great. While they transition. Not as a requirement to start.

But this thread has been derailed too far, and I feel I should bow out. Anyone who is interested in discussing and being educated on trans topics is welcome to pm me. As you can tell, it's a subject that I'm passionate about.



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RE: 50s style household - 3/13/2014 1:25:35 PM   
LafayetteLady


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That is exactly my point as well evesgrdn. No one like tto be told they can't make their own decisions, and no one is saying you can't know you are trans. But what one thinks being the other sex will be like and what it actually is is quite different.

That's why I assume it is required to lie as the desired gender for a year prior to final sugery, although I'm sure someone will be angry and complain they shouldn't have to do that either. I think bariatric surgery was a good comparison. Many overweight people think if they could just be thin, life would be great, and being a thin person trapped inside a fat one sucks.

I have no issues with SRS, but I see on this thread two people who from differing points are unrealistic regarding wanting to be accepted. One is angry they can't get acceptance or "learn" how to be the gender they feel, and the other doesn't seem to grasp that liking "girly" things like nail polish, makeup, etc isn't going to be readily accepted as a male.

I don't judge people on their gender or sexuality which I view as two different things, just like ethnicity. But you don't gain acceptance by beating people into accepting you and you certainly don't gain being mainstream by contastly crying out how different you are.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/18/2014 9:06:11 PM   
kittysbell


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neither of you are able to see us as women or men overcoming a birth defect in the first place,so your perspective is too miscued to ever really understand the gravity of our situation. to know the hell of being forced to live with a correctable grotesque abnormality ,and at the same time to be shunned,attacked,ostracized because of it. to live in an ignorant and apathetic society where someones opinion can hold more power over a minority than their legal standing,negating them ability to have any quality of life.

you want to pretend access to life affirming medical care is detrimental to the well being of the afflicted.


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RE: 50s style household - 3/18/2014 9:50:14 PM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittysbell

neither of you are able to see us as women or men overcoming a birth defect in the first place,so your perspective is too miscued to ever really understand the gravity of our situation. to know the hell of being forced to live with a correctable grotesque abnormality ,and at the same time to be shunned,attacked,ostracized because of it. to live in an ignorant and apathetic society where someones opinion can hold more power over a minority than their legal standing,negating them ability to have any quality of life.

you want to pretend access to life affirming medical care is detrimental to the well being of the afflicted.


If you had the surgery, would society be any less ignorant. Would the ostracism stop? Would straight men be attracted to you and unfazed by your transition? I don't know. But I wouldn't want to bet that those who were cruel before the surgery would suddenly change their stripes.

So what if the answer is "no"? What if nothing changes except for how you look and what you can physically touch on your own body, but all the other trials you face don't change?

The transition surgery isn't detrimental. But having unrealistic hopes and expectations about what life out there in the world will be like is what can be so very detrimental. That's no reason to not have surgery, but it sure is reason to have a support system in place and to be equipped to face what could be a devastating let down. .






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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 1:29:18 AM   
LafayetteLady


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OP,

My statements aren't based on you viewing your penis as grotesque. I've no doubt to you it is. My statement are from watching your comments over the last four pages. I'm sure it is much easier to believe people's attitude towards you is because of the GID as opposed to your personality.

I fully support re-assignment surgery and even believe it should be covered by insurance. Howevr, the person can't simply call their insurance company and say they want it, it needs to be accompanied by medical documentation. So you going on and on about your grotesque penis doesn't count as medical evidence. And the point is that if your penis were to disappear tomorrow and be replaced with a lovely vagina, your personality isn't going to change with it. Your negativity isn't going to vanish overnight and for that you need competent psychological help.

I am opposed to you searching for someone else to pay out of pocket for your surgery.

Don't presume that just because eve and I aren't giving you the pity party you are searching for that we lack understanding of your issue.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 7:33:44 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Don't presume that just because eve and I aren't giving you the pity party you are searching for that we lack understanding of your issue.

OK, let me step in an play devil's advocate here. I'm pretty big on personal rights and those rights start with your very own body. So I'm curious on what grounds has the individual lost the rights to their own body. Why is anyone but the person in question in the decision making chair here? Since we don't cover this stuff insurance-wise I'm unclear how society has any stake in this whatsoever. Why is this any different than the abortion question?

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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 7:46:40 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Don't presume that just because eve and I aren't giving you the pity party you are searching for that we lack understanding of your issue.

OK, let me step in an play devil's advocate here. I'm pretty big on personal rights and those rights start with your very own body. So I'm curious on what grounds has the individual lost the rights to their own body. Why is anyone but the person in question in the decision making chair here? Since we don't cover this stuff insurance-wise I'm unclear how society has any stake in this whatsoever. Why is this any different than the abortion question?


Actually this stuff is covered insurance-wise in most of Europe (I'm saying most because all the countries I know or lived in have it covered), the whole counselling issue isn't to prevent people from getting the surgery, a lot of them are actually TG and highly specialized, they're there to help you on every step of the way, guide you to sources where you can request financial support for the time in between surgeries, helps you with changing your paperwork, finding jobs, new homes if you want to start somewhere fresh, your rights (anti-bullying and discrimination laws for TG are pretty heavy here), therapists who deal with depression (the suicide rate of TG people is amazingly high), informs you about the different procedures and which risk each procedure carries. They help you to decide if you are going to do it faster and more risky because of your mental help, or if you do it slower and give your body a chance to recover in between surgeries...

I think it should be covered by insurance everywhere, just like a birth defect should be covered, it's not a whim, it's a medical need. Now since it's an expensive procedure, they do want the people to survive and make the best of it, hence the therapists that basically help you to settle in and actually increase your chances.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 10:10:45 AM   
LafayetteLady


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There is also the very real fact that as we can see with the OP, the idea that if they could just complete this surgery, all their problems would go away. Yes, one problem will be resolved, and gender-wise, inside and outside match, but it doesn't ultimately change who you are. And it certainly isn't going to change the perception of everyone in society.


No one is saying that any person can't make this decision, but getting help to be sure you really know all the challenges you will still face is being viewed as a bad thing. Why? Because it really is coming across like a two year old having a temper tantrum....I want it, I want it now, and if that happens, my life will be perfect and all my problems will go away.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 12:52:24 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FeralFoxy
I would hope that you would not continue using a term that people find upsetting, when speaking with people who have made it clear that they find it upsetting.

Well that surely doesn't describe me nor can I imagine why you would assume that. Lots and lots of people say lots and lots of things I find offensive or upsetting on a regular basis. I don't expect them to stop doing it. I surely don't expect the entire rest of society to conform to my sensibilities. That's a good thing because it's unlikely they are going to. Here on these very forums people post stuff every day that, were I to be seeking offence, I'd find HIGHLY offensive... pretty much any post that contains the word "consent" fits into that category.

1:1 I'd be very inclined to use whatever terminology set the other person preferred. In group settings such as a public discussion board I'm more likely to use my preference. If someone else is looking to be offended then I'm pleased I've satisfied their victim complex.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 6:05:20 PM   
evesgrden


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

OK, let me step in an play devil's advocate here. I'm pretty big on personal rights and those rights start with your very own body. So I'm curious on what grounds has the individual lost the rights to their own body. Why is anyone but the person in question in the decision making chair here? Since we don't cover this stuff insurance-wise I'm unclear how society has any stake in this whatsoever. Why is this any different than the abortion question?


It's not about society having any stake in this. It's about at least a modicum of counseling being provided both pre and post op,, and at least a basic psychological assessment of realistic expectations and emotional stability.

I don't think anyone has spoken out against someone's right to have the surgery.


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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 8:35:53 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden
It's not about society having any stake in this. It's about at least a modicum of counseling being provided both pre and post op,, and at least a basic psychological assessment of realistic expectations and emotional stability.

I don't think anyone has spoken out against someone's right to have the surgery.

If anything is gated by this "counseling" than yes you are speaking out against their rights. If, on the other hand, this "counseling" you are talking about is entirely optional then you and I are in agreement. I'd be in favor of "Hey, we really recommend some counseling time and here are the reasons. If you don't want that just sign here and here and initial over there."

To: LadyConstanze
Yeah, things are obviously quite different in Europe and my comments were US-based. The process you are describing sounds more like actual help as opposed to the sort of help our Republicans like to provide pregnant women considering an abortion.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 8:50:46 PM   
LafayetteLady


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"Realistic expectations" is gate keeping? Nonsense. What someone thinks something will do to/for their life and reality aren't always the same.

Take the OP as an example. From posts here, she seems to believe that this surgery will end prejudice against her, end job discrimination and a whole host of other things will simply be better. Common sense tells you that is simply not true. But hey, she is an adult, so fuck it, let her get the surgery she wants and when she finds out that people are still prejudice against her and she is still a miserable human being just now miserable without a penis, that's all on her?

Ever hear the phrase, "an ounce of preventions is worth a pound of cure?"

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RE: 50s style household - 3/19/2014 9:22:24 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Ever hear the phrase, "an ounce of preventions is worth a pound of cure?"

Sure... just make sure you come to me with a mountain of evidence before you try to steal someone's most basic of human rights in the name of doing good because honestly that's a pretty evil thing to consider doing. Sure it might be utterly necessary as really bad things sometimes are but you're going to need to convince me that it is UTTERLY necessary.

I'm sorry but the phrase "I was only trying to help" doesn't cut much mustard with me. I want to know plain and simple how the individual lost their most basic right here. On what grounds was it stolen from them? How did someone else get put in the driver's seat? Plain and simple... on what grounds did we steal someone's right to their own body?

While you're thinking that through let's remember that in the case of abortion we are (depending on your viewpoint) actually terminating another human life. I support abortion rights SOLELY because I'm unwilling to steal that same right from women. Go ahead and argue me out of that position. Tell me why it's OK to take away people's rights so long as you're trying to do good.

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