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RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 5:44:29 AM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Ever hear the phrase, "an ounce of preventions is worth a pound of cure?"

Sure... just make sure you come to me with a mountain of evidence before you try to steal someone's most basic of human rights in the name of doing good because honestly that's a pretty evil thing to consider doing. Sure it might be utterly necessary as really bad things sometimes are but you're going to need to convince me that it is UTTERLY necessary.

I'm sorry but the phrase "I was only trying to help" doesn't cut much mustard with me. I want to know plain and simple how the individual lost their most basic right here. On what grounds was it stolen from them? How did someone else get put in the driver's seat? Plain and simple... on what grounds did we steal someone's right to their own body?

While you're thinking that through let's remember that in the case of abortion we are (depending on your viewpoint) actually terminating another human life. I support abortion rights SOLELY because I'm unwilling to steal that same right from women. Go ahead and argue me out of that position. Tell me why it's OK to take away people's rights so long as you're trying to do good.

In the case of abortion, we first have someone diagnosed as pregnant. Verified. They also need to be of sound mind prior to consent. No on gets to have a D&C because they say they're pregnant and want one.

So first, we need someone credentialed to make the diagnosis. That diagnosis depends on verbal reports by the patient. It is not something that will show up in a blood test. It is not as earlier suggested to be a birth defect. There are no physiological parts that are generally considered abnormal for a physically healthy human.

What there is a disconnect between the patient's physiological presentation and a conflicting psychological and emotional perception of their gender.

The case being made here is that
a) sexual reassignment surgery should be provided as readily as breast reconstruction those for those with cancer or cosmetic surgery for burn victims
b) no assessment nor diagnosis is by anyone but the patient.

The former is about the insurance companies not covering healthy tissue for surgery in the same way it covers diseased or damaged tissue for surgery. But then a lot of surgery won't pay for reconstructive surgery or skin grafts either. There are burn victims and cancer patients who can't afford cosmetic surgery either.

The latter is something that medical community squawks about with respect to ethics. I ran a quick search on plastic surgery and counseling. There's counseling that goes on for nose jobs. Michael Jackson was clearly dysmorphic. I'm sure he went through that because of years of distress about the way he perceived himself and what he saw in the mirror. I hope his surgeons had counseled him about that. I hope his therapist had counseled him about that. He was considered competent to make the decision to have surgery... was he? Dunno. He had the money so I guess he didn't need to be.

A good cosmetic surgeon will assess whether the patient has realistic expectations about what the patient will look like after the procedure(s). If they do that for a nose job or brow lift, how can it be a denial of rights to do it for something as radical as sexual reassignment surgery?

I posted this earlier:. http://www.peter-ould.net/2013/11/13/transgender-mortality-rates/

High suicide and attempted suicide rates, high rate of psychiatric hospitalization. Because they were ill prepared? Dunno. Society is still just as cruel? Dunno. Disappointment? Loneliness? Dunno. Preexisting psyhological condition in addition to dysphoria? Dunno. Is SRS lifesaving as others have claimed here? Haven't seen anything to support that.

Need for thorough assessment and counseling pre and post surgery? Follow up counseling and outreach? I'd say it's a pretty good idea. If someone's worried about bias preventing them from getting the ok from a therapist or doc, get another therapist or doc. There are plenty of support groups out there so just asking the group who they would recommend and/or who they've used satisfactorily would be the obvious place to start.



Finally, if there really is a rights issue at stake, the ACLU is a click away.






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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 5:55:59 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		OK, but the death rates are significantly higher if they aren't treated. Being born into the wrong sex IS a birth defect, most of them notice fairly early, now they are finally treating kids, which makes the surgery a lot less complicated and dangerous, it takes care of mental health issues and depression, it takes care of feeling weird.

Sorry, Jacko doesn't cut it, you got one Michael Jackson and thousands of people being TG, by not letting them have the surgery you are making it worse, insurances SHOULD pick it up, it's not like they brought it on themselves or it's a case of body dysmorphia or that they are addicted to surgery. I'm all for giving them every help they can get, but in the US the problem is that the therapy is an added hurdle that does COST, therefore it makes it harder because they have to pay out of their own pocket, as far as I know also not a lot of laws in place that prevent harassment or bullying of TG people.

As yourself how you would feel if you'd find yourself being stuck in the body of the opposite gender and you hate every second of it and see it as an abomination, that would be enough to drive people insane, to depression or suicide.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 7:29:22 AM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline 		Where did you get the idea that I was against the surgery being done?

Besides, gender reassignment surger is covered by Aetna when considered medically necessary.

But... it takes more than the patient to determine if it's medically necessary... like any other medical procedure.

http://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/600_699/0615.html

Find me one surgical procedure that doesn't have eligibility criteria. Find me a covered surgical procedure that has "I want" as the only criterion needed to qualify.

I am all for SRS. I've been at symposiums on it; heard speakers who had it and those waiting to have it. It is not something that should be done rashly (and yes there ARE those who have tried that route) it should be done of sound mind and that needs to be thoroughly assessed (by definition and diagnosis this is a very distressed patient population) and proper support services need to be available for followup care above and beyond the physical recovery aspect.

This is neither an evil nor prejudicial approach. This is a responsible approach. It's about treating the whole person. How on earth could one provide treatment for a condition where the primary symptom is distress and hold that this symptom not be addressed other than by a scalpel?

Clearly the data show that cut and attach is not enough to treat this condition.






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What you permit, you promote.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 7:43:35 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		The way it currently seems to work in most places in the US is really that the therapy is more prone to discourage people by making it more expensive.

quote:

Find me one surgical procedure that doesn't have eligibility criteria.


You are familiar with cosmetic surgeries? All that is required is that my body can take it and I have the cash to pay for it.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 10:13:43 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Actually, that's not true LC, although psychological counseling isn't required, the pllastic surgeon still evaluates whether or not you are a good candidate for the procedure. At least reputable ones will.

Gastric bypass has a psychological component priot to the procedure as well.

There are plastic surgeons who refuse to perform procedures on people they think have unrealistic pexpectations, and there are people denied gastric bypass for having unrealistic expectations.

Like Eve, I'm all for SRS being obtainable, but I'm not for treating it differently than other life altering procedures. Everyone wants to be treated as equal, so you can't then cry you want this particular thing to be looked at different.

So please tell me why just saying "I want it," should make it available? Why should there be no criteria met to qualify for the procedure? Not every fat person qualifies for gastric bypass, but every person who says (without any medical diagnosis to go along) "I want to be the opposite gender" should not have to meet any criteria? Other than stomping your foot and crying life gave you a wrong deal and all of your problems in life exist because you have (or don't have) a penis?

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 10:15:57 AM   
kittysbell


Posts: 32
Joined: 10/10/2011
Status: offline 		i dont remeber ever saying surgery would stop the social oppression,but that because of it were left indigent, therfor the ability to fund surgery is held out of reach.now i did say learning adherance to scripts of the day would help with blending in so as not to be seen as abhorrent.

one of 3 things need to change for me to see a glimmer of an acceptable future
1 a halt to our own bodily "disphoria" through corrective medical intervention allowing us to at least look in the mirror without wanting to see parts of our physiology just fall off befor we even start our day,also allowing the most primal of human interactions most take for granted, physical relationships.- ability to see ourselves as our true selves,potentially anouther to do the same
2 hatecrime and employment protections,to stop assholes from being assholes thoughout the day with no repurcussions,enacting greivance routes to be followed when the courts or HR dont know what to do. - ability to do what needs done finacially
3 a change in social consensus - ability to overcome PTSD, as social and violent attacks based on our identity are acceptable and far to commonplace.

do you really think i would be 2.5 yrs into prescribed HRT without having gone through counseling? after 8 yrs of actively seeking,paying to educate the unwilling? i know a third party is beneficial when dealing with most issues,but when those issues are predominantly outside factors it can only go so far. really what is needed are case managers to help navigate the hurdles of the system,employment,and access to care. a nice thought if it wasnt so blatantly obvious that no such position currently exists.




< Message edited by kittysbell -- 3/20/2014 10:24:18 AM >

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RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 10:37:49 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Actually, that's not true LC, although psychological counseling isn't required, the pllastic surgeon still evaluates whether or not you are a good candidate for the procedure. At least reputable ones will.




LL, you have to go to LA, seriously.... I was basically seeing a ton of reputable docs, I was simply interested if it is time to have botox yet and frankly curious about it, while it's not a surgery, it is invasive, I didn't want the guys who do a bit of it on the side but somebody who does nothing else. Let's say I walked out of several doc's offices with "Are they fucking nuts?" Because instead of giving me a consultation, they tried to persuade me to have the trout pout too (weird collagen lips, I think I have very full lips, I don't need to look like I can stick to a window by suction), then one guy who tried to tell me that I need at least 2K worth of botox to look anywhere near my age, oh and would I be interested in liposuction too (at a size 2 errr - I think I pass) which lead me to snap "I wouldn't let a person who is certifiably blind near my face or body anyway with medical equipment" the receptionists both looked like out of a freaking wax cabinet, couldn't move their faces, exactly the look I DIDN'T want...
Last one was the doc of a friend in show biz, I was prepared to spend a few hundred, overheard him tell a woman in the next cubicle that he won't give her as much as she wants as she will look unnatural and if people ask her where she got it done, it will be bad advertisement for him, thought that guy sounds right... He actually talked me out of most of it as he said I don't need it and it would be a waste of money, I think I spent $150 (it was horribly painful, not doing that ever again) only to find out that I am one of the few who metabolize it within a very short time so it's a waste anyway...

But yeah, I saw cosmetic surgeons over the years, I once needed reconstructive surgery because my face got completely smashed in, each and everyone always tried to do an up-sell, either they or a colleague of them does this that or the other, and I can get a special rate for <insert surgery>

I triple dare you to randomly pick 10 cosmetic surgeons and go for the consultation and say you want a nose job or a boob job, if it's doable, they will do it, most will even refer you to somebody who can arrange loans.

I went to a reputable dentist in LA, as I get the scale and root planning every 3 months, they suggested having all my teeth pulled and replaced with implants, that would solve my gum problems (I think I heard a cash register in the background), went to another dentist who decided the gum problems aren't that bad, course of antibiotics and keep to the 3 month cleaning plan....

Unless you are asking for something that is close to impossible or bound to go wrong, most doctors are more than willing to perform surgeries, especially if you are private and can pay by cash or card....


_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 10:45:52 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		I don't judge anything by LA standards, since that's plastic city anyway.

But still you found there are reputable doctors who won't do it.

Funny thing, before I got my decent insurance back, I stopped seeing a doctor because she had more interest in her Botox Business than her "basic" patients.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 11:05:32 AM   
GoddessManko


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/6/2013
From: Dante's Inferno
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittysbell

i dont remeber ever saying surgery would stop the social oppression,but that because of it were left indigent, therfor the ability to fund surgery is held out of reach.now i did say learning adherance to scripts of the day would help with blending in so as not to be seen as abhorrent.

one of 3 things need to change for me to see a glimmer of an acceptable future
1 a halt to our own bodily "disphoria" through corrective medical intervention allowing us to at least look in the mirror without wanting to see parts of our physiology just fall off befor we even start our day,also allowing the most primal of human interactions most take for granted, physical relationships.- ability to see ourselves as our true selves,potentially anouther to do the same
2 hatecrime and employment protections,to stop assholes from being assholes thoughout the day with no repurcussions,enacting greivance routes to be followed when the courts or HR dont know what to do. - ability to do what needs done finacially
3 a change in social consensus - ability to overcome PTSD, as social and violent attacks based on our identity are acceptable and far to commonplace.

do you really think i would be 2.5 yrs into prescribed HRT without having gone through counseling? after 8 yrs of actively seeking,paying to educate the unwilling? i know a third party is beneficial when dealing with most issues,but when those issues are predominantly outside factors it can only go so far. really what is needed are case managers to help navigate the hurdles of the system,employment,and access to care. a nice thought if it wasnt so blatantly obvious that no such position currently exists.





This is really interesting, especially the inclination to dysmorphia. In this case it goes beyond what's regarded as cosmetic surgery because it can be life saving intervention.
I will go a step further and say it should also be inclusive to those with severe deformities, skin/body issues, if there really is no other alternative.
But kittysbell you're beautiful, I don't see a thing wrong with how you look to where people would persecute you.
I know your battle is a personal one and only you can understand it, and I'd hate to play a misanthropic card but, well... when people judge you, consider the source. Gone are the days of Socrates and Plato and here are the days of Snookie and Honey Boo Boo.
Read Plato's "Allegory of the Cave" for reference to that and here is one of my favorite quotes. "Birds born in a c age think flying is an illness". Their myopic view can't allow them to see past their own ability to overcome, that maybe others are not as strong.
If I were you, I'd get proactive about this, form a group, create a petition, get others to join in your right to have this type of surgery.
I think you're courageous and it's great that you are trying to seek help/answers where you can find it.
I am guilty of being critical of those I find weak sometimes too, but it's only when they purposely avoid the necessary ways to make themselves stronger or better like therapy or a support group.
I have to tell you though I agree with most on here that told you self acceptance really comes from within and anyone who thinks you're not good enough, well screw them! You are exactly as you define yourself.

_____________________________

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RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 12:17:08 PM   
crazyml


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Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline

Hmm. I've followed this thread fairly carefully and I'm still nowhere near being at a place where I think I can give you any intelligent advice.

I can only give you a couple of the thoughts that cropped up.

First, you've been on a hard road, and I can't (as a white, hetero, middle-class, cis-male) even begin to understand the toughness of your journey, but you do come over as a teensy bit bitter. That isn't to say that you don't have all the right in the world to be a bit bitter, but I would say that it's very unattractive.

I really struggled with your writing style, and to be honest, I began to actually feel resentment, it's almost as if a part of me felt that it was rather selfish and disrespectful of you.

This bit...

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittysbell

i dont remeber ever saying surgery would stop the social oppression,but that because of it were left indigent, therfor the ability to fund surgery is held out of reach.now i did say learning adherance to scripts of the day would help with blending in so as not to be seen as abhorrent.


if you think that learning adherence to social scripts from the 1950's is going to help you fit in, then I'm pretty sure you're going to be dreadfully disappointed.

If you were a friend of mine, my advice would be this...

1) Get some therapy, I think you need to uncover a better way of processing your experiences

2) Don't search for an idealized (and hopelessly romanticized) set of social scripts - You need to find YOUR script, and I'd hope that a good therapist would help with that.

If you can't afford a therapist, then I'd look for tg support groups locally.

In any event, and I say this in the spirit of helpfulness, it doesn't appear to me that you offer a very attractive proposition right now to a potential father figure who'd help fund the medical treatment you need.






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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 12:59:20 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Well said crazy.

I shan't opine my own views because.... well, they aren't nice.

But I will say this: I think the biggest problem with kitty is the internal thought processes that are going on inside and I personally think a lot more counselling and personal re-adjustment needs to be completed before considering surgery.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: 50s style household - 3/20/2014 2:33:07 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Twenty years ago, I was fat. No two ways about it and I wanted to be skinny, because I would be happy, and fit, and look great in clothes and men would desire me.

Anyone see the end of this?

Yep, I got skinny(er) and none of the above happened. I wasn't happy, men weren't flocking to me and even though I looked good in clothes, I didn't look that much better than when I was fat. And I was hungry all the time.

Now, I'm fat again, and this time, after three years of talk therapy I'm happy. I have successful relationships and am working on losing weight - not because of unrealistic expectations, but because I want to feel better physically.
and my point should be obvious. If you aren't happy with the flawed person you are right now, you won't be happy when your body looks the way you want it to. Happiness isn't dependent on outward looks, it depends on who you are inside. And people react to how you feel about yourself. Obviously, I can't identify with a TG - but I have a good friend who is m-t-f TG and the day he told me that he wished his penis was gone was the day I realized that there was something off about him. It wasn't a week later that he and his wife told me that he was TG. I don't understand it, but because this was something that he wanted desperately, I was more than happy to support him with it. She started hormones and both she and her wife would periodically gripe to me because it was like having two women with PMS in the house.
She lived with this for so long, and finally is transitioning. I couldn't be happier for her.

OP - I think you have unrealistic expectations for surgery. Yes , I get that you feel like you are deformed, but there is a really strong chance that after surgery you still won't "feel" completely feminine. And this expectation, and reality is what councelling should help with.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/21/2014 9:44:51 AM   
kittysbell


Posts: 32
Joined: 10/10/2011
Status: offline 		https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3C4ZJ7HyuE&feature=share

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RE: 50s style household - 3/21/2014 10:05:08 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		kitty, that video has nothing to do with you appearing so angry, at the moment I wouldn't like to be in a room with you, nothing to do with gender, just because you seem to lash out so much.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/21/2014 11:15:48 AM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

Besides, gender reassignment surger is covered by Aetna when considered medically necessary.

But... it takes more than the patient to determine if it's medically necessary... like any other medical procedure.


I believe that evesgrden is talking about surgery covered by one's insurance plan while LC is talking about cosmetic surgery for which one pays out of pocket - two different issues.

**********

I wanted the VA to cover a $25,000 procedure that they didn't perform but another hospital does. They turned me down, saying I had other options. (Both of which had unacceptable side effects.)

But if it was a $2,000 procedure, I wouldn't have bothered to involve the VA.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/21/2014 11:43:49 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		Kali, somebody claimed that for every surgery you need more than the money, if I want a smaller nose, all I need is a cosmetic surgeon and the money...

And in Europe, the whole gender reassignment surgery if covered, in the US they seem to try their best to make it impossible to afford, even if you can pay you need therapy, if you can't pay you can't afford the cost for a therapist in the first place. A lot of people get it done "cheap" in Asia and a shit load of things go wrong, but they are so desperate that they take crazy risks.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

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RE: 50s style household - 3/21/2014 3:33:28 PM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Kali, somebody claimed that for every surgery you need more than the money, if I want a smaller nose, all I need is a cosmetic surgeon and the money...

And in Europe, the whole gender reassignment surgery if covered, in the US they seem to try their best to make it impossible to afford, even if you can pay you need therapy, if you can't pay you can't afford the cost for a therapist in the first place. A lot of people get it done "cheap" in Asia and a shit load of things go wrong, but they are so desperate that they take crazy risks.


The therapist is the least of the expenses.

And in the US they do their best to make everything impossible to afford. Colonscopies. .. a couple of thou.. not covered.. the hemicolectomy after to remove large but benign polyps... for $36,000 and I had of course a 30% copay. That was with my insurance that I was paying $500/month for at a time when I also had a $5000/yr deductible. Individual, not family plan. If I had droopy eyelids which obscured my vision... that would not have been covered... even if it cost you your driver's license. No laser surgery. No bariatric, lifesaving or not... I guess it's cheaper if they let you die.

SRS doesn't hold any special place in all this. It is one of many medically necessary surgeries (and the video provides handy evidence that a clean diagnosis can be made).

But that doesn't mean that your (generic) insurance company will cover it. The plan I was on that I referred to above clearly stated that SRS was an exclusion. But the link to Aetna that I gave earlier clearly does not exclude SRS.

If someone becomes a diabetic, they send you to nutrition counseling. Why is it such a big deal to provide that for someone who's whole life is about to be radically different from anything they had ever known? Why would post op therapy be such an awful thing in light of the morbidity data? It's not like they can repo the surgery if someone doesn't follow through.

You know, if you're on the list of people for a heart transplant, one of the factors is the likelihood of survival. What are the characteristics of those who live a long time with the new heart? That's just one part of the angst ridden world of medical ethics. Well that's part of the whole eligibility dilemma for any medical procedure when you're talking about scarcity of resources, i.e., money or donor organs, or ICU beds or prenatal surgeries or or or

Those who are wealthy don't have to worry about that. Those who are not... want their brother the wounded vet to get plastic surgery for his burns, or prosthetic limbs, someone else waiting for experimental surgery that may help them walk again, someone waiting on surgery that might allow them to see for the first time in their lives, someone waiting for surgery that finally matches gender on the outside to the inside....

How much money goes to what kind of emotional suffering? Do you put more weight on who is more deserving by age? by likelihood of success? by degree of suffering?

Eligibility is about more than just "I want". Unless you are wealthy, there are other criteria because there are other competing demands for the same resources. Other equally worthy and deserving demands.

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: 50s style household - 3/21/2014 8:54:18 PM   
kittysbell


Posts: 32
Joined: 10/10/2011
Status: offline 		cleft lips

so then lets put this in the perspective of obama care . bodily autonomy states that noone can force you to have surgery nor can it force you to give of your bodie even if that means to help somone else,even when your dead. now obama care is a forced monetary involvement apon an unprotected secound class "citizen" thrown into a social pool. why should i be forced to hold insurance that doesnt cover me, taking in the odds of accomplishing it on my own,when that finace would be better spent accomplishing whatever i can to deal with my own condition.
hell for the price of fixing 12 sprained ankles they could perform a one time corrective surgery that would grant the afflicted a quality of life,who makes such determinations,and why should we believe they have anyone but their own best interests at heart.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/21/2014 10:30:37 PM   
evesgrden


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/9/2012
Status: offline 		http://www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2013/11/01/how-obamacare-will-affect-trans-folks-and-families

As to why you should have insurance even if your surgery wouldn't be covered:
A: Being trans is not the only medical condition in the world. What if you got appendicitis? Cancer? Were seriously injured in a car accident?

Regardless, you'll still have a percentage copay to go along with the surgery. You'll have premiums and deductible. That's what having insurance involves. But if youre waiting for the whole package to come without any out of pocket/copay costs from you, that's not going to happen. Not for you, not for anyone. Will some thousands be involve?

You bet. Just like everybody else.

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RE: 50s style household - 3/22/2014 9:42:00 AM   
kittysbell


Posts: 32
Joined: 10/10/2011
Status: offline 		lets not theorize wether or not i could make a theoretical copay, focus on why its not included at all. were not talking about a waiting list for organs,were not talking about a shortage of surgeons who could perform it,not that medical science doesnt have a cure. were talking about a society who doesnt want to cover something they have a personal distaste for.they dont want us to be able to go through a day without being constantly reminded of who they think we are,the decision is prejudice. they dont wanna have to work with us,no employment.they dont wanna have to stop being violent,no hatecrime. they dont want to allow us protection from the elements,no housing. they dont want to allow us a quality of life,no medical.

(in reply to evesgrden)
Profile   Post #: 100
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