quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Actually, if they are storing "billions" of rounds in storage containers, the ATF is going to have a field day writing citations over improper storage.

As for ammo going bad, the US military has god knows how many rounds of 5.56, .30, .50 left over from the Vietnam era as well as some older.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

...which brings us back to the OP theme of over-purchasing firearms/ammo in response to perceived threats.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yeah, it's pretty clear the "but ammo expires" has been eliminated as a market factor here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

According to gunbelts.com, shelf life of modern Ammo can be quite a while:

Ammo Shelf Life: How Long Are Bullets Good For? Ammo Shelf Life: How Long Are Bullets Good For? Sep 12, 2016

Is There Such A Thing As Ammunition Shelf Life?

One might wonder if there is such a thing as ammunition shelf life. It's a good concern to have, as ammunition should only be used if one can rely on it to be safe. Granted, one might opine that if a person keeping sufficient ammunition to worry about expiring is probably not doing enough point shooting!

Ammo Shelf Life Is Relative

The truth is that ammo shelf life is somewhat relative. Under ideal conditions, ammunition will actually keep for decades - in fact, in the right conditions...ammunition could potentially last longer than that. Believe it or not, there are a few things that affect how long ammunition or basically any other non-perishable good that people tend to stockpile, and for that matter, perishable goods as well. Those things are heat, moisture and sunlight. Outside of perishable goods that require refrigeration or freezing, long term storage in a dry, dark and moderate temperature environment will keep a lot of things nearly indefinitely - certain adult beverages (wine cellars are a thing for a reason), canned or jarred goods, and bullets will all keep for an incredibly long time in such storage. With more exacting control over these elements, such as if one uses a humidor or other humidity-controlled containment system, then bullets can last even longer. If stored in a vacuum-sealed container and left in a dark, dry place...it would be good basically forever.

That said, how much ammunition that is currently being held by people who have purchased it is being stored in a dark, temperature and humidity controlled container? Not much, in all likelihood; not many people will entertain the idea of having a bullet humidor. Therefore, the shelf life of ammo is relative, namely to how well it's stored by the person who bought it.

General Ammunition Shelf Life in Basic Conditions

For modern munitions, ammunition shelf life is perfectly sufficient for the average person to keep parcels of ammunition for years, if not decades in all likelihood. So long as the rounds aren't subjected to high heat or moisture, nothing is likely to happen. Most ammo manufacturers advise that their ammunition should be good for ten years. In reality, it will keep longer. How many people keep ammunition for a decade or longer, though? However, the target shooter and concealed carrier is somewhat different than the hunter and outdoorsman. The latter takes to the outdoors and deals with inclement weather, whilst the former might not. In fact, a good deal of self-defense ammo will only be in a magazine or a box. A rifle round or shotgun shell for the big game hunter and fowler can get rained on, momentarily submerged and so on. Water, and more to the point oxygen, has a pesky habit of permeating the molecular bonds of things. Oxygen is kind of like the guy at parties who randomly inserts himself into conversations; it makes things bad for everyone. When oxygen happens to iron, you get iron oxides, one of which - red iron oxide - is rust, and that's just bad. When it happens to brass or other types of ammunition casing, the result can be rust, corrosion, or at the very least a deactivated primer.

Ammunition Rotation

Though the shelf life of bullets is nearly forever, given the right circumstances, the person who buys the ammunition should treat it according to how it's used. There is also something to be said about rotation of ammo stores. Ammunition that's basically just for burning at the range merely needs storage in moisture-free, safe place. However, hunting rounds are another matter. If never taken afield, store normally. Rounds that have gone into the field and were subjected to any moisture at all, should be fired as soon possible, if otherwise discarded. Ammunition that's been carried in one's concealed carry gun for some time should also be occasionally expended at the range and new rounds rotated in. A number of good reasons exist for doing so - exposure to the elements, indentations from the feed ramp, excess lubrication if present can all negatively impact carry ammunition. It's a good idea to shoot the rounds one carries a few times a year to rotate it out. Besides, you should practice with carry rounds - that way you know how they perform compared to hardball.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You obviously didn't read the thread. Perhaps do that first. There's a LOT more evidence than that, mainly noting that expiration is not a short term market factor, like the 2008-2017 period we're discussing here.

It's not a matter of what I "believe." It might be a matter of what YOU believe, given that statement. I don't know.

I do know that what evidence has been presented suggests you're over-emphasizing the expiration of ammo, and ignoring that it takes a while.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

According to gunbelts.com, shelf life of modern Ammo can be quite a while:

Ammo Shelf Life: How Long Are Bullets Good For? Ammo Shelf Life: How Long Are Bullets Good For? Sep 12, 2016

Is There Such A Thing As Ammunition Shelf Life?

One might wonder if there is such a thing as ammunition shelf life. It's a good concern to have, as ammunition should only be used if one can rely on it to be safe. Granted, one might opine that if a person keeping sufficient ammunition to worry about expiring is probably not doing enough point shooting!

Ammo Shelf Life Is Relative

The truth is that ammo shelf life is somewhat relative. Under ideal conditions, ammunition will actually keep for decades - in fact, in the right conditions...ammunition could potentially last longer than that. Believe it or not, there are a few things that affect how long ammunition or basically any other non-perishable good that people tend to stockpile, and for that matter, perishable goods as well. Those things are heat, moisture and sunlight. Outside of perishable goods that require refrigeration or freezing, long term storage in a dry, dark and moderate temperature environment will keep a lot of things nearly indefinitely - certain adult beverages (wine cellars are a thing for a reason), canned or jarred goods, and bullets will all keep for an incredibly long time in such storage. With more exacting control over these elements, such as if one uses a humidor or other humidity-controlled containment system, then bullets can last even longer. If stored in a vacuum-sealed container and left in a dark, dry place...it would be good basically forever.

That said, how much ammunition that is currently being held by people who have purchased it is being stored in a dark, temperature and humidity controlled container? Not much, in all likelihood; not many people will entertain the idea of having a bullet humidor. Therefore, the shelf life of ammo is relative, namely to how well it's stored by the person who bought it.

General Ammunition Shelf Life in Basic Conditions

For modern munitions, ammunition shelf life is perfectly sufficient for the average person to keep parcels of ammunition for years, if not decades in all likelihood. So long as the rounds aren't subjected to high heat or moisture, nothing is likely to happen. Most ammo manufacturers advise that their ammunition should be good for ten years. In reality, it will keep longer. How many people keep ammunition for a decade or longer, though? However, the target shooter and concealed carrier is somewhat different than the hunter and outdoorsman. The latter takes to the outdoors and deals with inclement weather, whilst the former might not. In fact, a good deal of self-defense ammo will only be in a magazine or a box. A rifle round or shotgun shell for the big game hunter and fowler can get rained on, momentarily submerged and so on. Water, and more to the point oxygen, has a pesky habit of permeating the molecular bonds of things. Oxygen is kind of like the guy at parties who randomly inserts himself into conversations; it makes things bad for everyone. When oxygen happens to iron, you get iron oxides, one of which - red iron oxide - is rust, and that's just bad. When it happens to brass or other types of ammunition casing, the result can be rust, corrosion, or at the very least a deactivated primer.

Ammunition Rotation

Though the shelf life of bullets is nearly forever, given the right circumstances, the person who buys the ammunition should treat it according to how it's used. There is also something to be said about rotation of ammo stores. Ammunition that's basically just for burning at the range merely needs storage in moisture-free, safe place. However, hunting rounds are another matter. If never taken afield, store normally. Rounds that have gone into the field and were subjected to any moisture at all, should be fired as soon possible, if otherwise discarded. Ammunition that's been carried in one's concealed carry gun for some time should also be occasionally expended at the range and new rounds rotated in. A number of good reasons exist for doing so - exposure to the elements, indentations from the feed ramp, excess lubrication if present can all negatively impact carry ammunition. It's a good idea to shoot the rounds one carries a few times a year to rotate it out. Besides, you should practice with carry rounds - that way you know how they perform compared to hardball.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

...which brings us back to the OP theme of over-purchasing firearms/ammo in response to perceived threats.

You think they set sales records for .22LR under Obama?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

...which brings us back to the OP theme of over-purchasing firearms/ammo in response to perceived threats.

You think they set sales records for .22LR under Obama?

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yeah, it's pretty clear the "but ammo expires" has been eliminated as a market factor here.

You can believe that - but again - the US Armed Forces destroys hundreds of millions of dollars of 'unreliable ammunition' annually...
So obviously 'ammo expires' is a pretty strong market factor considering you have the largest consumer of ammunition suffering from it.

And i'm not entirely sure how it is clear that it has been eliminated...

you have a handful of people saying they shot old ammunition and a couple of anecdotes of long term storage. that isn't exactly proof that modern day companies think their bullets will last for ever...

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: InfoMan


ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Tell us miss-infoman what part of that increase was due to inflation and what part was due to the 'fear factor'?

a 250% jump in price due to inflation over a 5 year period?

I did not say that dumbass. Rtmfq


I'm not sure if you understand how inflation works... But on average - you're looking at a below 2% inflation rate yearly during that time period...


Cite please.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: InfoMan


The shelf life of humans is shorter dumbass. The military is still using ammo made before world war 2.
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.


Really... What ammunition exactly?

I am interested to know what ammo we use which was made before world war 2 considering that a majority of our guns no longer fire those caliber of munitions...


.45acp, .50

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

Well, yeah. It's kind of a Duh, really.

CA is still CA, though. I bought the wife a 9mm for our anniversary (hey, fuck off, I think it's a very romantic gift. With my ex, I wouldn't have a gun in the house, much less give her her own). Went out to pick up some plinkers right after the election and shelves were bare. CA passed a law requiring a background check for ammo purchases that takes effect in 2018, and enough people panicked.

Tell us Muse, since you want to talk about jobs, how many people do you think work in a typical company that makes aftermarket upper receivers for an Armalite style .223? What sort of skills do you suppose those employees have? No googling now.

Well,no Rich, it isn't a topic about jobs. It's data that supports a hypothesis that a lot of the gun market is driven by irrational fear stirred up by the gun lobby. If you want to go off on related tangents, you might compare it to the mania about muslims pouring over our borders so we need a wall that won't actually do much.

From there we speculated about the economics of those gun purchase trend and possible market consequences. I didn't mention jobs once. But sure, jobs are a possible effect of those changes, so if you want to talk about that, fine.

Skills are transferable, first. If more to the point, a declining domestic market and excess inventory doesn't mean the end . The US sells arms globally, even funding both sides of conflicts at times,. Taxpayers will end up buying guns, one way or another. And, certainly gun enthusiasts aren't done collecting.

I'm also,btw,not in favor of "saving" jobs. Detroit 'a auto dominance is not coming back, ever, because we have a glut of cars, because there's significant foreign competition, because markets today are global, and because automation has permanently replaced many manufacturing jobs. Retraining workers for new industries makes far more sense. Labor markets change along with product markets.

Whether I have or haven't specific knowledge on the skills needed to manufacture a specific product is irrelevant to all those points. If your point is just "well I know things you don't," that's hardly surprising...I suspect there are many such things, just as you likely don't know the details of my areas of expertise.

*shrug*

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

...which brings us back to the OP theme of over-purchasing firearms/ammo in response to perceived threats.

You think they set sales records for .22LR under Obama?

Without question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: InfoMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: InfoMan


ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Tell us miss-infoman what part of that increase was due to inflation and what part was due to the 'fear factor'?

a 250% jump in price due to inflation over a 5 year period?

I did not say that dumbass. Rtmfq


I'm not sure if you understand how inflation works... But on average - you're looking at a below 2% inflation rate yearly during that time period...


Cite please.

http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/united-states/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-united-states.aspx

Between 2007 and 2012 the average inflation per year was 1.8%
so - inflation accounts for 0.09 cents in it's jump from 5 cents to 12 cents.

And actually that was what you where specifically implying by questioning how much of it's price increase was influenced by Inflation...
as if it had a much larger role in the price increase then the increase in demand caused by fear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


ORIGINAL: InfoMan


The shelf life of humans is shorter dumbass. The military is still using ammo made before world war 2.
Jesus you are phoquing stupid.


Really... What ammunition exactly?

I am interested to know what ammo we use which was made before world war 2 considering that a majority of our guns no longer fire those caliber of munitions...


.45acp, .50

Wrong and Wrong.

The United States Military only Issues 9mm ammunition for it's side arms.
SOF operators where authorized to use 3 caliber types of handguns - those being the .40 S&W, 9mm, and .45ACP - however because the weapon is not 'Standard Issue' the Military does not provide the weapon nor the ammunition for the weapon... Officially - the MARSOC (the one group which actually remade the colt 1911 as the M45a1 for it's SOF operators) officially issues the Glock19 as it's SOF standard issue side arm... a 9mm hand gun.


The United States Military no longer uses the .50 BMG M2 ammunition which was made before and during World War 2... We use the .50 BMG M33 ammunition. And we're currently transitioning to an even more modern .50 BMG round - the Mk 323 mod 0 which uses a polymer coat rather then brass, which supposedly cut's the weight per round by some 20% not sure it's going to take though.


We use the same Caliber ammunition from before world war 2 in a handful of weapons...
.50 BMG, 105mm Howitzer, 155mm Howitzer, 9mm, etc.

But we don't Issue or Use Ammunition produced from before World War 2.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nnanji

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

Well, yeah. It's kind of a Duh, really.

CA is still CA, though. I bought the wife a 9mm for our anniversary (hey, fuck off, I think it's a very romantic gift. With my ex, I wouldn't have a gun in the house, much less give her her own). Went out to pick up some plinkers right after the election and shelves were bare. CA passed a law requiring a background check for ammo purchases that takes effect in 2018, and enough people panicked.

Tell us Muse, since you want to talk about jobs, how many people do you think work in a typical company that makes aftermarket upper receivers for an Armalite style .223? What sort of skills do you suppose those employees have? No googling now.

Well,no Rich, it isn't a topic about jobs. It's data that supports a hypothesis that a lot of the gun market is driven by irrational fear stirred up by the gun lobby. If you want to go off on related tangents, you might compare it to the mania about muslims pouring over our borders so we need a wall that won't actually do much.

From there we speculated about the economics of those gun purchase trend and possible market consequences. I didn't mention jobs once. But sure, jobs are a possible effect of those changes, so if you want to talk about that, fine.

Skills are transferable, first. If more to the point, a declining domestic market and excess inventory doesn't mean the end . The US sells arms globally, even funding both sides of conflicts at times,. Taxpayers will end up buying guns, one way or another. And, certainly gun enthusiasts aren't done collecting.

I'm also,btw,not in favor of "saving" jobs. Detroit 'a auto dominance is not coming back, ever, because we have a glut of cars, because there's significant foreign competition, because markets today are global, and because automation has permanently replaced many manufacturing jobs. Retraining workers for new industries makes far more sense. Labor markets change along with product markets.

Whether I have or haven't specific knowledge on the skills needed to manufacture a specific product is irrelevant to all those points. If your point is just "well I know things you don't," that's hardly surprising...I suspect there are many such things, just as you likely don't know the details of my areas of expertise.

*shrug*

I'm pleased you find the "gun lobby" so frightening. I think it's silly to believe it stirred up irrational fears. But, that sort of thinking is consistent with a socialist/progressive belief that the little people are all too ignorant to understand life, are merely blowing in the wind of evil corporations and need enlightened elites in the government to do things for them that they couldn't possible understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Nice little rant, but it shows both no reading comprehension and a disregard for data.

Point 1: the theme is that gun buyers buy into the hysteria. Since I didn't buy any guns, apparently I didn't find the lobby frightening.

Point 2: the data is the data. Provide alternate and supported interpretations if you like. Pretending it's not there is just irrational.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Nice little rant, but it shows both no reading comprehension and a disregard for data.

Point 1: the theme is that gun buyers buy into the hysteria. Since I didn't buy any guns, apparently I didn't find the lobby frightening.

Point 2: the data is the data. Provide alternate and supported interpretations if you like. Pretending it's not there is just irrational.

It's not entirely hysteria . Clinton tried and almost succeeded banning an entire class of firearms. Obama wanted to take it further.