Chaingang
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SirKenin
God did, and does, take idolatry very seriously.
Rhetorically, you are engaging in special pleading.
Our cultures decry religious intolerance and yet your sacred text prescribes not only intolerance but also violence against those of other faiths. You make a weak spirited attempt to claim that such intolerance was acceptable at a certain time and within a certain context and yet you also make the statement "God did, and does, take idolatry very seriously." because you know that these exhortations have never been done away with.
Idolatry, or god's supposed dislike of idolatry, creates no special case to justify religious intolerance - it's exactly what Jews or Muslims would think about Christians: that they are worshipping nonsense and should be destroyed. Again, despite having the same origins each of these faiths think of the other faiths as wrong-headed apostasy of some perceived original or more authentic faith.
There are no special time limits placed upon the intolerance within the text itself - that's your add-on to the text because I see that you maintain a "saved by grace" view of your faith. You would claim that such activity was acceptable before the advent of Jesus, but not as much afterward. But again, you said: "God did, and does, take idolatry very seriously." because you know that this kind of intolerance is an active part of your faith - that the old testament is still in effect. More on the "law vs grace" issue below...
My point was to show that someone would defend this kind of intolerance as acceptable within the thinking of their faith. Thank you, Sir Kenin.
Mission accomplished.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SirKenin
Now you will notice that Jesus never preached this concept, and there is a reason for it. The face of Christianity changed after his arrival, death and resurrection forever. We are no longer required to slay the "enemy", and this is where your "logic" falls flat on it's face. The Israelites of that time lived under Deuteronomic Law, otherwise known as the "Old Law". Modern day Christians live under the New Law.
The number one most anticipated argument: Jesus saves us through grace so we are no longer under Mosaic law. It's a great argument for everyone that wants to cherry-pick the portions of the Bible they are going to follow. I am not a believer so I have no such desires at stake; when I read the Bible I give passages no special consideration over others and I don't cherry-pick or pull things out of context. Someone said you might as well rip the book in two and throw away the first half - but that would be letting you off too easy. No Christian faith throws away the first half (the old testament), almost all Christian faiths teach the old testament right alongside the new testament - and there is a reason for that:
You are not saved by grace. You are under Mosaic law.
In other words, there is no "Judaism-Lite" under Jesus. Jesus made some very minor changes by adding onto the existing laws of Moses. That's what the Bible says he did. And we have it in Jesus' own words (well, supposedly).
Before I move on to the bigger issue of defending the above assertion with textual support from the Bible, let's refocus on your motives for cherry-picking biblical ideas. To claim that you are under grace and not under Mosaic law is an admission that you don't care about the letter of the bible. Which in turn means there is no authority for your views. You are a law unto yourself, which is fine by me - but just please admit this important point. My problem with people claiming "under grace" status is that they act as if the god of the old testament is an "old timey" bogeyman and that the Jesus of the new stestament is the true God. But why should the Christian god be so mutable? That's way too convenient and neatly does away with the whole of the old testament. Frankly, it's an admission that your faith is going to be whatever you say it is rather than what God or Jesus supposedly said it should be. Very slippery,
My literal reading of the bible suggests that you are under the laws of Moses because that's the law - period. Full stop. You are also saved by grace because man is seen as incapable of perfection. I recognize that is a very strict and literal interpretation of the Bible, but then I have no stake in making any other kind of interpretation - I read what it says, and I then assume it means what it says. One point people often miss is that Jesus was obviously a practicing Jew: he taught at temple, practiced Jewish holy feasts and so on. What some people call the "last supper" was Jesus practicing the Passover (even if you want to argue the precise timing is off, the activities are in imitation of a Passover Seder). Jesus did not institute a new faith, if anything he added onto the existing Jewish faith. No more and no less.
Moving onto textual support for these views...
Jesus claimed the authority of Mosiac Law in the Book of Mark:
7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the
commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
7:12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
If the above is supposed to be Jesus repudiating Mosaic law, I must be reading it all wrong. Isn't Jesus here teaching from the Old Testament? Why would he do that if you are saved by grace? Jesus is here specifically comparing Mosiac law to other interpretations made by men, and finding the latter lacking in the extreme. To me Jesus sounds fairly pissed off in this passage. And that's red letter Jesus too - his own words supposedly, just like the parables.
Of the Mosaic Laws, Jesus also had this to say: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).
Read the rest for a good understanding of what he was saying. Basically, it means the Christians should be practicing Judaic customs. I realize most Christians do not follow these teachings, which I find of great interest: they claim the authority of the Bible and then do whatever they like instead.
"Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition..."
Here's one of the reasons you obey Mosaic law: you are saved by grace but you show your love of God by following his commandments (i.e. starting with all the Mosaic laws and up to and including all of the add-on laws established by Jesus himself). Textual Support from the Book of John:
14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
This sure sounds to me like Jesus is saying that you are supposed to follow the Mosaic law. What other commandments would a practicing Jew be talking about here?
What I see in all of this is Jesus saying that he supports and practices Mosaic Law - in fact, to do so is his own commandment: "If ye love me, keep my commandments."
Jesus also makes a point of noting that you must practice not only the spirit of the law, but follow it to the tiniest detail: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
So if Jesus did away with the laws of Moses, it's news to me:
"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do."
_____________________________
"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus
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