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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 4:18:50 PM   
untamedshysub


Posts: 220
Joined: 2/26/2005
Status: offline 		How did the two of you meet?  I grew up in Louisana and Southern Baptist scare the hell out of me lol but I love them as they are family as long as we do not talk religion. I also have Vodoo Queens as aunts so life is interesting. Which is why I do not  judge anyone cause my glass house is already cracked and the utility bills are killing me lol.

(in reply to BlueHnS)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 4:31:00 PM   
BlueHnS


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		He actually worked for/with (I'm still not quite sure exactly) my parents. I was 13 the first time I met him, we started dating when I was 18. I'm not sure which caused more of a uproar, dating the "help" or that he is 15 years my senior.

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Questions are dangerous, for they have answers. ~ Kushiel's Dart
I think I'm going to get off. ~ The Poet

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 4:52:11 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Well, Chain did not give enough effort to understand the text.  He takes what he wants that fits his understanding and discards the rest.  It would be better for him if he did not make any effort at all.

Anyways.  Paul's teachings fit in with Jesus' teachings.  Hand in hand.  It does not take a scholar to see this.  Jews cannot see it, but they had it handed to them on a silver platter and they missed it and crucified Jesus in the end.  I do not feel sorry for them at all.

The point here is that if you are going to study the Bible, you have to study it from beginning to end, and obviously our hero Chain completely missed the whole point in his effort to bash Christians and made himself out to be an ass in the process.

There are numerous resources available to you to understand.  There are concordances, commentaries, websites, dictionaries, Greek translations, ancient history, geography.  There is so much to aid you in your understanding of what was going on in the Bible.  Clearly Chain did not avail himself to these references.  I plead that you do not fall into the same trap he did, else you make yourself to look as foolish as he did.  Like I said, these crap threads bashing Christians are getting old, and you had BETTER have suitable ammunition to back yourself up, because you WILL be called on it.  Do you want to paint yourself out to be a fool as well?  Then follow his example.  Else, knock it off.

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 5:00:09 PM   
KatyLied


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From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Perhaps Chain understands the bible the way he needs to understand it.  Why can't he or anyone else take what they want from it, hopefully gain something and disagree with parts of it as well?  

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 5:06:27 PM   
BlueHnS


Posts: 166
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Status: offline 		I'm not overly sensetive, but the statement Jews had it handed to them on a silver platter and could not see it strikes me wrong.
Incedentally "the Jews" didn't crucify Christ, the Romans did.
And I would ask, reguardless of who crucified Chist , had the crucification not taken place where would Christianity be today? 

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Questions are dangerous, for they have answers. ~ Kushiel's Dart
I think I'm going to get off. ~ The Poet

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 5:10:48 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Perhaps Chain understands the bible the way he needs to understand it.  Why can't he or anyone else take what they want from it, hopefully gain something and disagree with parts of it as well?  


Well, chaingang has already stated he doesn't believe any of it, and that it's stupid. I'm sure the most use he gets from it is using it as a doorstop (though he says he helped prep him for Shakespeare).

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 5:22:32 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Anyways.  Paul's teachings fit in with Jesus' teachings.  Hand in hand.  It does not take a scholar to see this.  Jews cannot see it, but they had it handed to them on a silver platter and they missed it and crucified Jesus in the end.  I do not feel sorry for them at all.



Crucifixion was an imperial Roman execution, if the Jews had executed Jesus he would have been stoned, they were not allowed to crucify anyone. There is no evidence at all that the Jews executed Jesus. In fact what is known about the historical Pilate, he was not the sort of man to wash his hands of anything regarding killing someone but would have positively revelled in it.

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 5:33:02 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS
Based on the criteria for the Messiah Christ did not meet it. 
That is what the Jews believe.
 

The criteria:



1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)

I suppose that he was.



2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)

I suppose that he was a member of the tribe of Judah? (I am not an expert.)
Supposedly he was a male descendent through Mary. Fact is that Jesus illegitimate father the Roman soldier Panthera as a carrier of the seed of God, may well have been a direct male descendent of both Kings. As Jesus had no legitimate father, by default he was the son of the Creator - which in my opinion is surpassing the requirement. Christian doctrine has it that there is no difference between the father, the son and the holy spirit - which is even better again.



3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)

Originally intended literally with reference to the Babylonian exile. It now functions figuratively: all those jews - and later gentiles - who accept Jesus are no longer exiled from grace, but returned to God (Israel).



4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

He did. These days this temple is called christianity.



5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)

He did this as well: his people do not revolt against authority, but pay the emperor what belongs to the emperor. Christians refuse to fight Rome.



6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)

He has most certainly influenced the entire world to do so.
 
Thus Jesus most certainly meets the jewish criteria. (As did the original Messiah about five or six hundred years before him; unfortunately this chap then was not recognised as such by the jews.)
 
People usually are extremely reluctant to recognize someone as a prophet or as the Creator himself, unless he is outfitted with all the stage props. Usually they either say he is crazy, or simply kill him or her outright.
 
The Creator always want people to change. Prophets of whatever God always want people to change their ways. People, however, never want to change their ways and therefore always ignore or attack prophets and the Creator.

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/27/2006 5:40:16 PM >

(in reply to BlueHnS)
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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 5:40:46 PM   
SirKenin


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From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Actually, it was the Jews that demanded the crucifixion of Jesus.  The Romans said no.  The Jews insisted, so finally the Romans washed their hands of it and pretty much said "fine, have it as you wish".

Not that I am mad at the Jews.  They had to do it to fulfill prophesy.  If they did not, I would not have My salvation today.  But, facts are facts.  If anybody wishes references I will provide them.  Just let Me know.

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 6:41:50 PM   
BlueHnS


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		I apologize for the delay in my response as I recieved unexpected company... Where were we?
Insofar as the exiles being returned I would wonder where a literal translation gives way to being figurative.
 
Unfortunately the temple being rebuilt is not figurative, but the structure itself. This could not have taken place as Christ was in the temple and it was destroyed after his death.
 
World peace has existed only in short bursts. Less than 100 years in all of recorded history. His people not revolting against authority does not equate world peace.
 
Failing to meet even a single criteria would exclude him from being the Messiah.


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Questions are dangerous, for they have answers. ~ Kushiel's Dart
I think I'm going to get off. ~ The Poet

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 6:57:45 PM   
BlueHnS


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Status: offline 		I will grant that a certain sect of the Jews demanded Christ's crucifixion, however it was still the Romans who agreed to and carried out the crucifixion.

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I think I'm going to get off. ~ The Poet

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 7:06:28 PM   
Chaingang


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Status: offline 		I come at this material as if it were simply literature.

I read the New Testament as it is: a collection of books by apparently different authors. Each author is his own voice and and I take each at their own word. I don't need an interpretive lens for each text as I assume each author means what he wrote.

I don't need Paul to tell me what other authors meant - I just read Paul for what Paul has to say. That's fair - the new testament is not a singular coherent work by one man, it is a collection of texts by several authors. As a rule, Paul doesn't interest me very much. I am far more interested in the central four gospels, as I am sure everyone is.

I don't see why Paul must be accepted as the final arbiter of what something means in the New Testament. To take a single text in the New Testament, say the Book of Mark, and to assert that I can read and understand that book by itself is perfectly reasonable. The Book of Mark purports to tell the first hand account of Mark as he experienced the life of Jesus, including portions that rhetorically purport to be the words of Jesus in the first person (if the author of Mark is to be believed, of course).

What I am being told by many of you believers is that I can only understand Mark's account, or the red letter words of Jesus, by first viewing them through the lens of Paul's interpretation - and this as opposed to the ordinary, literal meaning of the words in plain context. In sum, the suggestion is that the author of Mark is an inarticulate boob that cannot be trusted to say what he means, or that Jesus was an inarticulate boob of the same type - that only Paul can place this text in its proper context and explain what people are saying (i.e. what Mark and Jesus both meant). To support this absurd notion, people keep pointing to work where the author Paul keeps referring back to himself as his own authority in a circular fashion. That's not an ideal circumstance - far from it.

My first challenge is this:
Show me any quote within the four gospels that in it's plain and ordinary meaning supports the specific interpretations later asserted by Paul. You aren't allowed to use Paul as his own authority, just the plain meaning of a text within any of the four Gospels.

My secondary challenge is this:
I have shown on several occasions how the plain meaning of the red letter words of Jesus support a "saved by faith" but still under Mosaic law viewpoint - both, not just one or the other, and not just "saved by grace." Show me a quote in the four gospels that disproves my claim without reference to Paul.

What I want is for one of the four authors of the gospels (or a red letter Jesus quote) to agree in plain language with Paul's later views. My assertion is that there is no such evidence anywhere in the gospels, that without Paul you believers ain't got dick.

You believe in Paul, and not in Jesus - which I find fascinating. You believe the words of one man over the supposed actual words of the one you call "the savior." What's astonishing is that red letter Jesus warned against doing that very thing - and he said it in plain language and without help from Paul.

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 7:31:11 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS
Insofar as the exiles being returned I would wonder where a literal translation gives way to being figurative.
Those who live with the law instead of in grace will always wonder about this, for they are without grace.
The Babylonian exiles were punished by God. When they were allowed to return to Israel the jews had the opportunity to recognize the Messiah, but they failed to do so. At that time the literal interpretation had been fulfilled and by divine intervention to be fulfilled again it acquired symbolic (figurative) meaning.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS
Unfortunately the temple being rebuilt is not figurative, but the structure itself. This could not have taken place as Christ was in the temple and it was destroyed after his death.

Again, the literal interpretation refers not to the destruction of the temple by the Romans, but to the earlier destruction of the temple by the Babylonians. When the Babylonian exile ended the temple was rebuilt, but the jews did not recognize the Messiah, as a consequence of which this criterium also lost its literal interpretation and acquired the figurative interpretation fulfilled by Jesus. As the jews do not live in grace but by the law, they are unable to comprehend this.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS
World peace has existed only in short bursts. Less than 100 years in all of recorded history. His people not revolting against authority does not equate world peace.

This criterium probably also refers to the period immediately after the end of the Babylonian exile. It must have been a time of peace, because the jews were allowed to rebuild their temple. Therefore at that time there must have been peace between Babylon and Egypt: world peace, as to those people that was the whole world as far as they were concerned. So again this criterium, already having been fulfilled, loses its literal interpretation and acquires a figurative interpretation. The reign of Jesus is not of Earth, but in Heaven, therefore those who accept him have no reason to fight. Also, Jesus was accompanied by the Magdalene, the divine embodiment of peace. As the jews do not live in grace but by the law, they are unable to comprehend this.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueHnS
Failing to meet even a single criteria would exclude him from being the Messiah.

It is only those who do not live in grace but by the law, that are unable to comprehend that Jesus was the Messiah. To convince them, Jesus was resurrected, proving his divinity; one doubter even put his fingers in his wounds to convince himself that it was truly Jesus that stood before him. What better proof could those who live by law instead of in grace want? It requires a leap of faith to move from the law into grace, and this was made easy on the jews by Jesus' resurrection, but even that proofed insufficient for man is stubborn and unwilling to change and lacks faith.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
I come at this material as if it were simply literature.

You are it seems a scripture expert, Chaingang. The jews always complained about the scripture experts. Sir Kenin is correct: you know the scripture, but you lack comprehension.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang
You believe in Paul, and not in Jesus - which I find fascinating. You believe the words of one man over the supposed actual words of the one you call "the savior." What's astonishing is that red letter Jesus warned against doing that very thing - and he said it in plain language and without help from Paul.

Actually I read the bible once, about nineteen years ago and have forgotten most of it. So I do not recall what Paul has said, and I may actually disagree with some of what he has said. What is important, is that Paul was chosen and made Paul by divine intervention. That is his legitimation and what puts him next to - and in my opinion elevates him above - Jesus. I regard Paul as the then incarnation of the Creator. As far as I am concerned he is his own authority.
 
Also, it says - if I recall correctly - somewhere in the new testament: investigate all and keep what is good. That as a matter of course also applies to the bible - or any other religion.

 

< Message edited by Rule -- 8/27/2006 7:52:43 PM >

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 7:35:37 PM   
Arpig


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Status: offline 		If you are going to post regarding any established religion then you are posting about insanity & the lack of understanding

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 8:08:11 PM   
BlueHnS


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		Yes, we follow the law. Some more than others depending on what one observes and doesn't, much like the varied branches of Christianity. That is what G-d gave us. That is what we work with.
 
On another note, if I'm not mistaken. Lazarus too was raised from the dead, I'm not quite as versed in the new testament. While indeed a miracle Lazarus' own resurection in now way qualified him as a contender for the "messiah" status.
 
While I personally have enjoyed this discussion, I do not wish for people to think we are going at each other in some kind of mine is better than yours vein. I would love to continue this any time, be it privately or in the boards.



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Questions are dangerous, for they have answers. ~ Kushiel's Dart
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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/28/2006 4:08:00 AM   
darkinshadows


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OK... seeing as Chain obviously has more desire than arguing with Kenin than actually listening and discussing anything anyone else has to say including anything I have to say and show - and seeing as Chain does not wish to discuss anything - in reality as he is avoiding every point I and anyone else has offered to show him - apart from Kenin. (Geez does anyone feel ignored as yet?)
 
quote:

My first challenge is this:
Show me any quote within the four gospels that in it's plain and ordinary meaning supports the specific interpretations later asserted by Paul. You aren't allowed to use Paul as his own authority, just the plain meaning of a text within any of the four Gospels.

So - Acts 'obviously' doesn't count.  Poor Peter, one of the most charming and beautiful people of the bible, the leader of the early church and messenger of God as WELL as being an apostle - and his words don't count.Geesh - and you accuse christians of cherry picking?
 
quote:

My secondary challenge is this:
I have shown on several occasions how the plain meaning of the red letter words of Jesus support a "saved by faith" but still under Mosaic law viewpoint - both, not just one or the other, and not just "saved by grace." Show me a quote in the four gospels that disproves my claim without reference to Paul.



John 1:1 In the beginning was the word.  And the word was with God annd the word was God.
John 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:3 Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.
John 1:4 In Him was Life and that life was the light of men.
John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
 
***********************************************************************

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

***********************************************************************

John 14:5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
 
**********Jesus' own 'red letter' words *******************
 
John 20:21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."
John 20:22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
John 20:23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Literal Translation - Those whos sins you forgive have already been forgiven; those whos sins you do not forgive have not been forgiven.
 
Under mosaic law.  Sins were NEVER forgiven - but atoned for through animal sacrifice.  Jesus instructed specifically and extremely clearly - that this was now NOT to be followed, AFTER his resurrection.
If the prophacies were not fulfilled, the 'Christians' would be of course be following mosaic law.  However, they wouldn't be christians - they would be jewish - because the non fulfilment of the law qwould of meant that Jesus was not born, died or resurrected.  Christians only exist because of christ.
 
Chain - what is it you cannot grasp?
Jesus spoke of the past, the present and the future.  Whilst He was alive - he instructed his followers to obey the Laws as they were written.  ON HIS DEATH - the laws were superceded by the fulfillment of the Law.  It really isnt that hard to understand.  I would appriciate a response from yourself, taking the death of Jesus into consideration.
 
Roses are red
Violets are blueish
If it wasn't for Jesus
We would all be Jewish.
 
Peace and Rapture


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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/28/2006 4:12:41 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

If you are going to post regarding any established religion then you are posting about insanity & the lack of understanding

That could be said for anything - religion, spirituality, politics, Bdsm, neighbours, the young and the restless......
 
Peace and Rapture


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/28/2006 4:30:20 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

Roses are red
Violets are blueish
If it wasn't for Jesus
We would all be Jewish.


I wonder how followers of other religious traditions (there are religions other than Judaism and Christianity) or those who are atheist or agnostic feel about that statement.


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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/28/2006 4:48:12 AM   
BrutalAntipathy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

Roses are red
Violets are blueish
If it wasn't for Jesus
We would all be Jewish.


I wonder how followers of other religious traditions (there are religions other than Judaism and Christianity) or those who are atheist or agnostic feel about that statement.



Roses are nice
but violets are prettiest.
Had I not read the Bible
I might still be a theist.

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/28/2006 5:15:09 AM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
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Status: offline 		Roses are lovely
Like peas in a pod
With stuff like this round us
What need of a God?

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Profile   Post #: 80
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