RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence

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RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:00:04 PM

Chaingang

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Joined: 10/24/2005
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Okay, so I have to learn what Jesus (your God) meant by reading what Paul says he meant? I can't just read Jesus' words on their own and arrive at an understanding based on that? Jesus cannot be trusted to have said what he meant?

Wow...!

John 14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

What can he be talking about if I am saved by grace?

SirKenin: "Thanks god, but fuck you - since I am saved by grace anyway I'll just do whatever damn fool thing I please! Paul gave me permission."

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 41

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:05:03 PM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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Chain...

What you are doing is exactly what you accuse christians of doing - picking and choosing texts.

What you are doing is taking a persons words - and placing your own translation upon it.

Same as you accuse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows
A christian can follow mosaic laws. Follow them to the letter. Practise and preach every text, every hand written word. Makes really no damn bit of difference.

It really doesnt make any difference Chain. Any person could follow the laws to the letter - but without knowing Jesus - and without having all those laws within your heart - that doesnt get you into 'heaven'... that doesnt make you saved.

As painful as it is for some to accept... you could be a mass murderer on his deathbed... and yet, if that person truely felt remorse... felt guilt... and accepted Jesus as his saviour and truely repented - and you have no idea how many have.... that person will gain entrance to God. A handful of laws, followed to the letter with an empty heart and spirit is fruitless.

That was the point of my post. I never said I do not follow the laws. You have no idea what laws I follow or how I live my life. And the truth is - whether you do or not is irrelevant. I face God. Not you. Not some priest. Or some pope. I do not face some fundemental zealot or some bigoted person who cannot see anything but words - most of which are not even in existance in the written word of today. I dont cherry pick - as you have - with my books and my paragraphs. I inhale every word. I digest every morsel. And I face God. And if I have done wrong - if I have sinned and have never repented for that sin - then God will judge me. Not you. Not some Vicar in a pulpit. But God.

And I am comfortable facing any 'sin'. And accepting my fate. My death. Because I know it is done so out of love. And that, along with God - is all that is important.

Would you be?

Chain - what you should understand is that Jesus fulfilled the laws.
Youre own cherry picking has already stated that.

For a christian... Jesus is the law. His birth, death and resurection is a fulfilment - in his own words - of the law. He was speaking of the future...of what was to come to pass. Until Jesus died and was resurrected, of course the laws were as they were. But in the fulfilment of the law, Christianity was born. It really isn't that difficult to understand.

Cherry picking is all well and good. You have taken one sentance out of the post I gave to you that you felt able to attack and misinterprete simply because you cannot respond to the others I gave you - of Peters vision - of Jesus' fulfilment of the prophecies. You are clouded by your need to prove what? That christians should be following a law that would mean going against their God?

Peace and Rapture

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 8/27/2006 3:20:25 PM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 42

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:18:31 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
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From: Barrie, ON Canada
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Well thank goodness Chaingang is not a pastor for a church...

quote:

Did Paul preach grace in the absence of accountability? No!

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (Romans 6:1-2)

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! (Romans 6:14-15)

I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. (Romans 6:19)

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (Romans 7:7)

For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." (Galatians 5:13-14)

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/grace.html

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 43

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:19:17 PM

NorthernGent

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Chaingang,

Out of interest, what motivated you to take the time to understand the bible?

Regards

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 44

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:27:16 PM

Chaingang

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Joined: 10/24/2005
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Yeah, I'm going to have give my quotes extra weight as red letter quotes from the supposed mouth of Jesus himself. Sorry, but there it is.

I am stunned to see others giving MORE weight to the ideas of Paul. It's not that I reject Paul or the many, many, many other books in the New Testament - it's just that rhetorically speaking it's unjustified to give less weight to the words of the big man himself. The point is that many of you claim to follow Jesus - when in truth it's quite obvious you ignore his words whenever it suits. If there's a conflict between one view and another, I feel justified in giving more weight to the plain words of Jesus himself over those of one of his disciples.

The claim you all make is that you are Christian. Jesus is the Christ.

How can you ignore the plain spoken words of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels? Why doesn't what Jesus said trump what Paul said? Put another way, aren't you insisting on putting Paul before Mark, Matthew, John, and Luke and what they said Jesus said? In every case, you are giving Paul the trump such that none of the other disciples supposedly knew what Jesus meant - only Paul. That's weird.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 45

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:31:34 PM

Chaingang

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NorthernGent:

Obviously, the Bible is an incredibly important book to many people in the "western world."

Generally speaking, I am fairly well read. And you can't touch Milton or Shakespeare without tons of mythology and the Bible already under your belt.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 46

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:35:36 PM

untamedshysub

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well here is my two cents. The mosiac law was to keep the jews seperate from the gentiles and keep the line clean for when the savior who is Jesus was born . ( That whole boring book of Leviticus) When Christ died there was no longer any need for the Mosiac law as it had served it purpose. There are over 800 laws that moses wrote and when asked which of the commaned law is the most important Jesus replied: love God with all your heart , and soul and mind and the second to love your neighbor as you love yourself. If we live by these two rules it covers all the others.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 47

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:37:01 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
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From: UK
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Hello NG

I saw your question... and I know it wasnt to me... but I felt compelled to speak.

Chain does not understand the bible He interprets it and studies it. But understanding is a completely different thing... a completely different concept.

I interpret the bible (with Gods help). I study it. But understand it? I truely do not believe that the bible can be fully understood as any one true way - as much as the fundemental zealots would want everyone to believe. And fundemental persons are not just christians. They are also people who would devour the bible and make it all about mosaic law as well. They are people who are so wrapped up in the 'one true way' - that they are blinded by anger when people do not agree with them and see it as their own way.

The bible is a personal book. A personal journey. Whilst the christian speads 'the good news' - the good news for me, is not what is the good news for another. I can only open my empty hand and say - this I hold within my palm, is all God. Accept it as you desire and take it within you. Feed from it - examine it - speak to it - and find God. For He is within me. And I am him.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 48

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:38:02 PM

KatyLied

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I want to add that every time I see a phrase containing red letter Jesus, I have a visual of Jesus with a red sharpie, a la Edward Gray.

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- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 49

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:42:51 PM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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Did I ever say I put Paul before Christ?

I would like a response from that question, Chain.

Again you are taking people and grouping them all together.

First mistake of any judgemental fundemental.

If you wish to respond to me as an individual and not as a 'group' - fire away. But please do not place posts and accuse me of doing something I have not. If you knew any of my posts from other threads - you know how I feel about Paul.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 50

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:45:21 PM

untamedshysub

Posts: 220
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What is a red letter Jesus? is that when the bible is written in red letters quoting him ? Why do people get hung up on such things?

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 51

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:45:51 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
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From: UK
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I just keep seeing Gary Oldman...(not that thats a bad thing...)

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 52

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:49:47 PM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

I just keep seeing Gary Oldman...(not that thats a bad thing...)

Peace and Rapture

Oh sure, toss me aside for him.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 53

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:51:45 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Nooooooooo.....

He really doesnt dance that good so I hear...

By the way... I really think I am getting an unhealthy obsession for your posts....(nothing like a bit of honesty)

Peace and Rapture (as she tapdances - stage right....)

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 54

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:54:32 PM

untamedshysub

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well if we are going to pick favoriate apostles I perfer Peter He seem the most human to me.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 55

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 3:56:28 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
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From: UK
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Oh I adore Peter... yay him...although I do not know if he could dance as well as Level...*swoons*

(returns to normal programming)

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to untamedshysub)

Post #: 56

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 4:05:09 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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Hi dark,

I'm certainly not in a position to have any idea who is making more sense as my knowledge of the bible is minimal in relation to what is being discussed here. But, personally, I find it quite impressive that someone who is not religious is willing to put that amount of effort into attempting to grasp the meaning of a religious book.

Obviously, you've spent a fair amount of time too :-)

Regards

(in reply to untamedshysub)

Post #: 57

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 4:08:46 PM

BlueHnS

Posts: 166
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline

Alright I'm gonna just jump right into the thick of this ... I'll start with I'm Jewish. Just to make things interesting Pain is Southern Baptist. We have great, sometimes enlightening religous debates, but the bottom line is I'm not convetring and neither is he. To this day neither of us understand the violence that is done in the name of *religon* Near as we can figure it's a battle over land began by half brothers that lasted far to long. Nor do we understand the whole my G-d is better than your G-d thought process. Aside from being extremly juvenile last I checked at least in Judiasm and Christianity share the same G-d. I have little knowledge or understanding of Islam so I can not comment on that.

Based on the criteria for the Messiah Christ did not meet it. Yeah, he's a good jewish boy and should arguablybe granted prophet status, but certainly nothing more. That is what the Jews believe. (Unless one is a Jew for Jesus, which just confuses me. Not having spoken to one I tend to think they are confused Christians. I could be wrong.)

The Tanakh is a recorded history of my ancestors, and our relationship with G-d. Though I've admittedly not read it cover to cover, oy all those begettings just bore me to tears, I've yet to stumble across the word " Messiah" though anointed one does appear from cross referencing.

Incedentally, Jews have 600+ laws to live by, it's far more than the 10 commandments. Mayhap that's why were so cranky!

I think what it truly comes down to is fear of the unknown.
I know many people that will not go to certain neighborhoods because they have been told "Those people are dangerous!"
I know many people that have been shunned from groups based on appearances, be it because of thier skin color or thier weight.
People on the whole are not prepared to step out of thier own little worlds and see what the rest of the world has to offer.

_____________________________

Questions are dangerous, for they have answers. ~ Kushiel's Dart
I think I'm going to get off. ~ The Poet

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 58

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 4:09:33 PM

NorthernGent

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Chaingang,

As mentioned, very impressive that you're prepared to put that amount of effort into understanding the bible considering you're not predisposed to because out of religious motivation.

Regards

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 59

RE: Religion of Religious Intolerance and Violence - 8/27/2006 4:10:26 PM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Oh I adore Peter... yay him...although I do not know if he could dance as well as Level...*swoons*
(returns to normal programming)

Peace and Rapture

He most assuredly could not *laughs*

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 60

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