RE: Transplants in China

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Transplants in China

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Transplants in China

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 5:08:11 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I was wrong to be that "strident". but I cannot believe if it were americans being treated this way there would be the same attitude, and that is really disheartening

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 21

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 5:22:04 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Julia, are you kidding, I know a bunch of people I'd like to see put in a "Donor Program" many in Washington.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 22

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 5:36:23 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
When it is your time, it is your time. Do not cling to life, as it often only serves to extend your suffering.

I am also opposed to most medical treatments. It is only very rarely that someone is truly cured by it. (antibiotics and aspirin being just about the only effective medications)

Usually when someone gets another medication for one illness their health in other respects starts to go downhill quickly.

The key word in the quote above is "most". For those who missed this word upon first reading the statement this time I have made the word bold.
I specifically did not say "all". If any of you want to know the distinction between the meanings of the words "most" and "all", then please consult a dictionary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
I may despise people who for religious beliefs do not believe in medical treatment but at least I can understand where they are coming from.

I am aware of the effects of the divine on our universe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
Your statements are either meant to be somewhat joking or are blatantly ignorant.

In The Netherlands in regular medicin 45 billion euro is spent each year on health. Yet the waiting rooms of every physician is daily filled to the last seat.

If medical treatment is so very effective at all, then why are about eighty per cent of people in industrialized countries chronically ill?

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
Many many treatments cure or manage people's medical problems outside of antibiotics. Just look at all the cancer survivors for one.

Yes, manage. I pity them.

If you read my quoted text again, you will notice that I avoided the word "manage". My statement regarding the effectiveness of medical treatment specifically limited itself to those "cured". To then ameliorate that very low percentage - say half of one percent (just a wild guess and possibly too high) - by adding the many people whose disease is managed (and whose health often as a consequence gets worse: iatrogenic diseases) is a rather desperate justification of medical non-effectiveness.

How about the eighty per cent of chronically ill people that are not cured?

As for those few cancer survivors: often they have multiple diseases, of which cancer was only one. I pity them as well.

A few of my friends survived cancer. I am glad that they did. Me, when I suffer from something serious I intend to swim to Iceland. I have seen hospitals and the kind of awful people that work there and I have seen Hell and the minions that hold sway there. I'd rather swim to Iceland than be treated in a hospital or by a physician or by another health worker.

quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez
As far as the emotional standpoint, try looking into a dying kids eyes knowing you cannot do anything for them, let alone to actually have options and to tell them why bother is much different then some abstract opinion.

When you got to go, you have got to go. Dying kids often know that.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 23

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 6:26:33 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

Rule, all the Doctor's waiting rooms filled up in the Netherlands?
Must be all that pot they smoke there!
Pot is legal in Holland, right?

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 24

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 6:27:37 PM

WetHotGoddess

Posts: 128
Joined: 5/18/2006
Status: offline

In India, people will sell their own body parts to the black market organ peddlers, so rich AMERICANS can have transplants? These people sell organs so they can survive!
If we are going to live in America and pretend that modern medicine is the answer to our troubles or that money can buy anything, of course this shit will keep happening. At least the chinese wait till they're dead to sell the parts.

ALSO here in the good old US there are people who ravage the carcasses of the dead and harvest parts for black market organ vendors, so sweet little American chittlins can continue to breathe. And even old bastards who have lived past their life expectancy.. they may need a perfectly good organ as well! WHo has the money?? That is all that matters.

The problem I have with it is greed. Our medical system is built to be a profit maker and so it is corrupt as hell.

Just my take on it. You may disagree but I am with Popeye. It is more legitimate than alot of the shit that we accept on a daily basis in this country.

_____________________________

ARIEL

Your opinion is very important to us. Please hold for the next available representative.

"Thinking is for losers"- Bart Simpson

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 25

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 6:45:42 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

If it were really a life or death situation, I would do it. But it would really have to be a life or death situation, because having surgery in China is about as risky a thing to do as I can imagine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

If your child were dying and needed a transplant and you had the money - would you go to China and pay for such an operation, if no suitable options were available at home? Or would you find the entire thing so immoral that you'd rather see your child suffer and die than take part in such a trade?

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 26

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 6:53:37 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Rule, all the Doctor's waiting rooms filled up in the Netherlands?
Must be all that pot they smoke there!
Pot is legal in Holland, right?

Unfortunately it is not legal. I seem to recall that small amounts of soft and hard drugs are tolerated, though. I do not mess with my superior mind, so I do not rightly know, as this subject does not interest me.

This is a smart government strategy: by not legalizing pot, prices remain relatively high and accordingly the tax revenues - yes, coffeeshops are taxed - are high also. Tax officals even encourage (exert pressure on) coffeeshop holders to raise their prices in order to collect more taxes.

Tolerating small amounts of hard drugs for personal use also allows that lucrative trade to flourish.

We have a very smart government. They profess decency with their mouths, but meanwhile fill their pockets with illegal profits with their hands.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 27

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 7:25:24 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I was wrong to be that "strident". but I cannot believe if it were americans being treated this way there would be the same attitude, and that is really disheartening

I agree completely. Though I think most Americans would be apalled to learn that this happens. I wouldnt want the organ of someone who was killed under this shroud of bullshit. I could never 'live' with myself purchasing an organ and knowing that I was alive because someone else was victimized. And I wouldnt want it for my child either, as I know my girl would never want her life to stand for something so inhumane. Frankly Im not that surprised to hear this...China doesn't even care about its children, surely we cant expect them to start caring about a thief or a rapist. This is why I believe that we (America) are correct in upholding the civil rights of even our criminals. But that was another thread, a while back. lol.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 9/27/2006 7:26:38 PM >

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 28

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 7:33:59 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

When you got to go, you have got to go. Dying kids often know that.

Are you saying that even when people choose to be donors should they be killed in an accident, that their organs should instead be "thrown away", rather than save a life, if possible?

Im one of those organ donors. If I'm killed in a car accident, I want them to slice me to ribbons and take every possible part they can use. Maybe my corneas will help a blind person see, or maybe my heart will save someone's grandmother. Or my kidneys will save some kid on dialysis. Why waste that?? Im dead anyway, why not stop someone else's suffering?

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 29

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 7:39:58 PM

StrongButKind

Posts: 136
Joined: 10/15/2004
Status: offline

It is not certain they are only doing this on criminals sentenced to death. There is real evidence they take political prisoners, do live-donor transplants from them, and kill them. The Matas-Kilgour report on this is worth a read:
http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

Children are advantaged significantly on the transplant waiting list in the United States and have a great chance at getting an organ.

Does transplant tourism that includes both exploitation of the poor and abuse and murder of political prisoners make it justifiable to amend US law to make deceased donation mandatory or at least presumed to increase available organs here?

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 30

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 7:40:11 PM

Dtesmoac

Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline

There was an aticle some time ago about whether for some organs they were harvested before the execution occured because this preserved the condition of the organs. I think that was a BBC item as well.

In personal circulmstances I would probably go to any length for the children.....hope I never find out

(in reply to Zensee)

Post #: 31

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 8:03:09 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongButKind

It is not certain they are only doing this on criminals sentenced to death. There is real evidence they take political prisoners, do live-donor transplants from them, and kill them. The Matas-Kilgour report on this is worth a read:
http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

Children are advantaged significantly on the transplant waiting list in the United States and have a great chance at getting an organ.

Im not sure that I believe American children are being saved by imported organs torn from the bodies of live donors from China. (though I dont doubt that this is common practice in China)

quote:

Does transplant tourism that includes both exploitation of the poor and abuse and murder of political prisoners make it justifiable to amend US law to make deceased donation mandatory or at least presumed to increase available organs here?

No, I think it's ok to accept an organ from a living donor, such as a relative etc.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to StrongButKind)

Post #: 32

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 8:22:18 PM

StrongButKind

Posts: 136
Joined: 10/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongButKind

It is not certain they are only doing this on criminals sentenced to death. There is real evidence they take political prisoners, do live-donor transplants from them, and kill them. The Matas-Kilgour report on this is worth a read:
http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

Children are advantaged significantly on the transplant waiting list in the United States and have a great chance at getting an organ.

Im not sure that I believe American children are being saved by imported organs torn from the bodies of live donors from China. (though I dont doubt that this is common practice in China)

Absolutely not. I meant those as two unrelated facts. You have to go to China to get these organs. I was pointing at that kids have an extremely high chance of getting organs from the deceased list in the United States. All those organs are domestic. Sorry for the confusion.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 33

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 8:27:53 PM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongButKind

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongButKind

It is not certain they are only doing this on criminals sentenced to death. There is real evidence they take political prisoners, do live-donor transplants from them, and kill them. The Matas-Kilgour report on this is worth a read:
http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

Children are advantaged significantly on the transplant waiting list in the United States and have a great chance at getting an organ.

Im not sure that I believe American children are being saved by imported organs torn from the bodies of live donors from China. (though I dont doubt that this is common practice in China)

Absolutely not. I meant those as two unrelated facts. You have to go to China to get these organs. I was pointing at that kids have an extremely high chance of getting organs from the deceased list in the United States. All those organs are domestic. Sorry for the confusion.

lol. I gotcha. Sorry about that.

Anyway...Yeah...I think when it's done legitimately, organ donation is a really cool thing. It's bittersweet, but in practical and non-emotional terms, it makes good use of someone's death. I can't see that as having a negative side at all.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 9/27/2006 8:28:36 PM >

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

(in reply to StrongButKind)

Post #: 34

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 8:37:31 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
Are you saying that even when people choose to be donors should they be killed in an accident, that their organs should instead be "thrown away", rather than save a life, if possible?

No, I am not saying that. From a spiritual point of view such happy accidents may be allowed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
Im one of those organ donors. If I'm killed in a car accident, I want them to slice me to ribbons and take every possible part they can use. Maybe my corneas will help a blind person see, or maybe my heart will save someone's grandmother. Or my kidneys will save some kid on dialysis. Why waste that?? Im dead anyway, why not stop someone else's suffering?

I hope that you will not be involved in such a happy car accident.

On another note: During the past year a young girl died in The Netherlands apparently spontaneously - or was it murder? - when she went to have a nice evening in the town. When her body after autopsy was returned to her parents, they noticed that her internal organs were missing. Eventually the nine missing organs were returned. They were from nine different people, both male and female and some were from very aged bodies.

(in reply to marieToo)

Post #: 35

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 8:55:11 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Got a reference for that...or is that something that happened in your parallel universe?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

On another note: During the past year a young girl died in The Netherlands apparently spontaneously - or was it murder? - when she went to have a nice evening in the town. When her body after autopsy was returned to her parents, they noticed that her internal organs were missing. Eventually the nine missing organs were returned. They were from nine different people, both male and female and some were from very aged bodies.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 36

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 9:17:44 PM

Rule

Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Got a reference for that...

I had to google for it. Eventually I found the story. It was different from what I recalled. The parents sued the Department of Justice, as the Dutch Forensic Institute had returned the body without the organs. The DFI attributed her death to an inflammation of her heart, but said heart was proven to belong to an old man. The healthy, 21 year old girl died in 1999 and the organs of seven different persons were "returned" in 2004. Her parents suspect murder and that her drink had been tampered with.

Full details in Dutch are in this article: "Forse claim voor Justitie na geknoei met organen" in this link: http://journalist.web-log.nl/journalist/justitie/index.html

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 37

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 9:22:23 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

That's an interesting story. Pretty weird, actually.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 38

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 11:15:35 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
If you read my quoted text again, you will notice that I avoided the word "manage". My statement regarding the effectiveness of medical treatment specifically limited itself to those "cured". To then ameliorate that very low percentage - say half of one percent (just a wild guess and possibly too high) - by adding the many people whose disease is managed (and whose health often as a consequence gets worse: iatrogenic diseases) is a rather desperate justification of medical non-effectiveness.

How about the eighty per cent of chronically ill people that are not cured?

As for those few cancer survivors: often they have multiple diseases, of which cancer was only one. I pity them as well.

Can you cite where you get these percentages? Only 1/2% of cancer patients are cured? And they have multiple diseases? And they should just go? Did I understand that correctly?

Huh.

Well, my mother survived breast cancer. No other diseases. Took a year of hell to get through but it has been cured and she's gone on to enjoy 6 beautiful grand children and has been living a really good life.

My uncle survived lung cancer, believe it or not - no other medical issues other than sleep apnea. It's been a couple years - he's in Spain on vacation right now, partying it up with his family.

My Dad battled cancer and it ultimately took him. A man strife with depression most of his life, finally realized before he died that he was loved and deserving of love. He said to me, with tears in his eyes, he finally found happiness. Thank God he did not forego treatment years ago because "it was time for him to go." It would have been a tragedy for him to go without knowing love.

There are stories after stories like this. I believe your view is limited.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for the issue of body parts, my ex husband was a buyer at a biomed firm. He brought home a "parts list" one day. Any organ you can think of, from any "person type" - male, female, adult, child, infant - you name it. Up for sale. From all sorts of countries. Russia was a big one, actually. These parts were purchased for cloning and other labratory experiements. No clue how they had been come up for sale. It was really creepy to actually read a price list for a toddler's organs. This stuff is happening all over, folks. Not just in China, not just to save initial illnesses.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 39

RE: Transplants in China - 9/27/2006 11:37:00 PM

UtopianRanger

Posts: 3251
Status: offline

quote:

It is not certain they are only doing this on criminals sentenced to death. There is real evidence they take political prisoners, do live-donor transplants from them, and kill them. The Matas-Kilgour report on this is worth a read:
http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/

I think you are correct. Anyone remember when the secret service recently arrested Dr. Wang Wenyi for shouting at President Bush "President Bush, stop him from killing" and "President Bush, stop him from persecuting the Falun Gong." During a recent visit by the Chinese Premier / President?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/211,111,,1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenyi_Wang

I read an article shortly after this took place that said this lady gave up 600K year income as a surgeon in order bring notice to the religious persecution of Falun Gong and the practice of ''live'' organ harvesting from it’s membership.

As a few other posters have said…..I’d rather go the way of the dodo than agree to accepting an organ transplant from a Chinese person who was murdered and had their organs harvested in the name of political or religious persecution.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 9/28/2006 12:15:55 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to StrongButKind)

Post #: 40

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: Transplants in China

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.219