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RE: Transplants in China - 10/1/2006 1:31:27 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
Actually, because I live in a humane country, there is no cost for me to get a transplant in Canada.

But, supposing I had to pay cash - still, I would not take the Chinese route, regardless of the savings or holiday opportunity.

There may be not a lot to think about for you but that doesn't mean everyone should be thoughtless or can be.
0

You don't pay for the transplant if the doctors say you qualify.  But what happens when your medical system says no to you? The policies for Canadian transplant centers accepting patients onto their lists is FAR more stringent than many of our centers here in the states. (That's fodder for a whole 'nother thread, really.)  Those rejected patients come here to the US where we will accept up to 5% of each transplant center's patient listings as foreigners, or go elsewhere in the world.  That's the start of organ commerce.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Transplants in China - 10/1/2006 2:03:43 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Because what you're saying is reductionist.  You're pretending that there are only two points of view about this: yours, and that of people who think there's nothing wrong with China's policy of selling body parts.  Most of the people who don't agree with you also don't agree with China's policy of selling body parts.  But it sounds like you don't want to pay attention to any of the complexity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I think you're misrepresenting the people who have expressed an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So, there is a fair proportion of posts here which see no problem in taking advantage of organ donation from executed Chinese prisoners.



err........ how exactly? Is there not a fair proportion of views in that direction?

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Transplants in China - 10/1/2006 2:08:10 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I'd be glad to accept a Christmas present from you anytime you'd like to give one, but if the point of this book is that China spies on us and deceives us, then it's one of those situations where I agree with the thesis and don't agree with the inference.  We spy on China.  Everyone spies on everyone.  I'm just glad that if China really is going to be the next superpower (and I think the odds are just about 50-50), at least we can be pretty sure that they're not going to try to spread hostile ideologies to Europe and the Caribbean; they're not going to shoot down passenger planes; and they're not going to sponsor terrorist acts against us.  That's a lot more than I can say for most of the rest of the world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Is this post your way of refusing to accept an early Christmas present from me?

I think our current policy / philosophy with the People's Republic sucks ass.

You oughta make your next selection ''Deception'' lol

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Transplants in China - 10/1/2006 2:41:31 PM   
LTRsubNW


Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

On BBC news tonight - not really news as its something we all likely knew about already - but sounds like one of "those" threads to me.

China executes more prisoners every year than the rest of the world combined. Those executed are returned to their families as ashes. But along the way to the crematorium, the bodies are harvested of organs which are then used for transplant in operations sold to foreigners in China. A liver transplant comes in at around GBP 50k apparently.

So, bearing in mind that these people are being executed for often petty crimes after extremely dodgy trials, and that the Chinese government is making a fortune out of this practice and is therefore willing to sentence more and more people to death for lesser and lesser crimes;

If your child were dying and needed a transplant and you had the money - would you go to China and pay for such an operation, if no suitable options were available at home? Or would you find the entire thing so immoral that you'd rather see your child suffer and die than take part in such a trade?

E


If my child were dying and I knew of a way to save them, I'd sell my soul for him/her.  As horrid as that may sound, I'd well in the deepest depths to save my child.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Transplants in China - 10/1/2006 9:13:14 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for the issue of body parts, my ex husband was a buyer at a biomed firm.  He brought home a "parts list" one day.  Any organ you can think of, from any "person type" - male, female, adult, child, infant - you name it.  Up for sale.  From all sorts of countries.  Russia was a big one, actually.  These parts were purchased for cloning and other labratory experiements.  No clue how they had been come up for sale.  It was really creepy to actually read a price list for a toddler's organs.  This stuff is happening all over, folks.  Not just in China, not just to save initial illnesses. 


But how were they acquired?  Legitimately? 

In the US, people can donate towards "research and education" through organizations like the National Disease Resource Interchange.  http://www.ndriresource.org/  There's hundreds of these organizations....and they supply researchers with organs, tissues, and cells for them to do their work.  They also provide biomed companies with "demo parts" -- say, a leg to be preserved to demonstrate a new orthopedic device a company is marketing.


Yes, Im well aware of this, as I am a willing consenting donor when my death occurs. 

Adoption is wonderful and legal too when done legitimately.  But that doesnt mean that black market babies should be bred and sold. 

I think you may have missed the current of the conversation.  No one was putting down legitmate organ donation.  This was about the killing, selling and exploiting of human beings in order to rape them of their body parts so that others may live.  The fact that there is legitimate organ donation happening every day, does not mean that these horrors being discussed here are untrue or should not be discussed.

I didn't miss the point of the conversation at all, marie.  You're quoting an offshoot conversation about someone inquiring about where research organs are acquired in the US......


Ummm...the "someone" inquiring was me.  And it wasn't "offshoot" at all. It was exactly on topic and was in direct correlation with what this thread was about, which I attempted to explain to you the three times you helped yourself to my posts and misconstrued them into a springboard to grandstand about your own personal cause.  Classless. Really.

< Message edited by marieToo -- 10/1/2006 9:14:34 PM >

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marie.


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(in reply to MisPandora)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Transplants in China - 10/1/2006 9:43:37 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I won't requote all that, but since my post initiated that conversation, I want to clarify that those body parts purchased for research were not purchased from US sources.  My post had to do with biotechnology corporations and the practice of purchasing such organs, etc., from foreign countries. The question of how those countries acquired said "parts" is what is unknown and merely speculative.  However, at the time I saw the price list, it gave me an ugly feeling inside.

Organ donation in this country is a very personal decision.  While I admire those who choose to donate, I also understand those who do not.  I have witnessed a family being pressured to donate out organs of a loved one and thought that was rather distasteful at the time.


(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Transplants in China - 10/1/2006 11:28:13 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee
Actually, because I live in a humane country, there is no cost for me to get a transplant in Canada.
0

You don't pay for the transplant if the doctors say you qualify.  But what happens when your medical system says no to you?


Indeed. It was perhaps unnecessary for me to make the reference to Canada for precisely the reasons you give. I was actually going to make a similar point to yours in my response to Popeye's latest straw-man riposte, where he declared my opinion hypocritical merely because I can, under favourable circumstances, get the procedure virtually for free. (Actually there are many attendant costs which also must be born by patients in Canada).

So, Popeye. With regards this - "Wow! The hypocracy from the left is stunning!" and this - " Zensee, if you don't want to do it fine. But why should other people not be able to do it?"

- I could indeed find myself facing the choice posed by the OP so I am fully entitled to offer a personal opinion on the matter and said opinion is neither enhanced nor diminished by coming from a citizen of Canada.
- This is an international forum and the OP asked a moral and ethical question, not a jurisdictional one. Thus your don't be telling people in the USofA what to do, argument is both a distraction and is itself hypocritical, coming from a country that loves to tell everyone else in the frigging world how to live their lives.
- Please read what I write and respond to that. Don't make up things on my behalf so you can conveniently refute your own arguments.

0

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"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." (proverb)

(in reply to MisPandora)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Transplants in China - 10/2/2006 12:24:15 AM   
MisPandora


Posts: 2911
Joined: 4/7/2004
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Ummm...the "someone" inquiring was me.  And it wasn't "offshoot" at all. It was exactly on topic and was in direct correlation with what this thread was about, which I attempted to explain to you the three times you helped yourself to my posts and misconstrued them into a springboard to grandstand about your own personal cause.  Classless. Really.

marie --  I've made not ONE position statement or "promotion" for or against donation here.  And last I checked, "helping one's self" to posts on a public board is what discussion boards are all about.  I'm not sure why you're so angry towards me, but regardless, I appreciate YOUR willingness to be a donor.  Cheers.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 108
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