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ORIGINAL: MisPandora

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

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ORIGINAL: MisPandora

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

I dont agree with railroading people (Chinese or otherwise) in order to harvest their organs.  It doesnt get more wrong than that. 

Is that because you're American and we have this "possession of self" thing to contend with?  There are other free countries in this world that subscribe to what's called Presumed Consent.  When a person dies, it is automatically assumed unless stated otherwise, that organs and tissues to benefit humanity will be donated.  It just simply happens.  There are also a few countries that the body becomes 'property of state', enabling donation and transplantation to occur.  Interestingly, those are countries whose waitlists are FAR less grandiose than our 92,000 people waiting here in the US.

MisPandora:

I am sure you separated my statement from it's context.  The "railroad" people comment was in direct reference to a discussion that was going on about taking Chinese criminals (even for minor crimes) and executing  them specifically to sell their organs. 

To give consent to the usage of your organs in the case of one's death, is something entirely different, that I spoke to very clearly here.  There is a huge difference between exploiting humans for their body parts and donating organs legitmately through consent.  The former is inexcusable and I doubt my feeling on that has anything to do with being an American with a "possesion of self" issue.

Would there be any difference in the Chinese government taking an executed prisoner's organs vs. the swedish government sanctioning a family being moved out of the ICU when their loved one is dead so that organs can be recovered?  Ultimately, someone pays for ALL of the organs --

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I wonder what the waiting lists are like in China itself when all these organs are available for donation?

E

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 But we aren't going to do jackshit about it.  And why not?  They own half our fucking mortgages in this country.  They know they can do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't provoke a hot war, and the most we can do is lodge an emasculated formal complaint or allow some congressman from Montana or something to spout off and make people feel better about doing regular business with those evil Communist atheists.

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

But...... there's a lot we can do about it. For starters.....we could cancel our debt with them and tell them to go to hell and that we aren't going pay.

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
...fixed parody relationship...

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

If you're serious about that, I think it would be catastrophic.  No one would ever invest in the U.S. again--aside from the fact that it wouldn't even be in our larger geopolitical interests.  Especially at times like this, it's nice to know that the world's only other potential superpower is NOT going to declare war.  They do a lot of things we don't like, but I'd much rather be dealing with them than with states like, oh, Pakistan.

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

But...... there's a lot we can do about it. For starters.....we could cancel our debt with them and tell them to go to hell and that we aren't going pay.

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ORIGINAL: Chaingang

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger
...fixed parody relationship...

Is that like when every channel is showing the Three Stooges? Damn, I hate it when that happens...

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ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

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Well, if you look at the law of any civilised country, you will see there that occasioning the death of another is illegal, and that human rights laws are in place in many countries which guarantee a right to life. Maybe the choice of the word sacred was poor, but at the same time we live in a Christian culture from which our law is derived, and which is so effective in lobbying against voluntary euthanasia that thousands die in agony, so in that sense, yes it is sacred.

This still does not answer the question of who are you to try and enforce your values on another society. Just because their society is different and you don't agree with it doesn't give you right to interfere.

OK. I will no longer say anything more on the subject, except for this; every surviving nazi must be pardoned immediately and Saddam's trial must be stopped. We had no right to interfere with the values of either society. Further GWB must be tried as the nazis were in Nuremberg, for waging an aggressive war, along with Blair and all key officials and generals of the US and Britain for the war on Iraq.
Neither country had any right whatever to interfere. I suggest holding the trial in Beijing, where the standards of justice are so high that all can expect to be organ donors approximately three hours after the start of each trial.
We should also enact a law in all western countries which forbids any good man from saying anything, so as to allow evil (sorry, internal policies) to flourish.

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I'm not Christian. I care not one jot what religion people choose as long as they get to choose it and they get something out of it and dont bother me with it. But I do care a great deal that people are harassed, persecuted, abused, attacked and killed for their religion. I dont care for what they believe, but I will defend their absolute right to believe it and not suffer for it. By the way, it might interest you to know that I serve on a police body dedicated to the ending of hate crimes.

But even in our "civilized" countries people don't get to choose their religion. The religion of the parents is forced upon the child until such time as the child can rebel effectively to another religion. Some don't even get to rebel and become indoctrinated into the parents faith. This has been the way since religion was invented.

This sounds contradictory. The children have no right to rebel because that would be to interfere with the internal policy of their family. I suggest an amendment to the bible (not the first) which replaces the injunction to stone one's child to death outside the city wall in the case of apostasy, with one which counsels that one's child should be executed and his organs donated for profit.

I would also contend that until your out of a job, you shouldn't be pointing the finger at the faults of a country that (to my knowledge) you're not apart of and has no bearing on you and yours.

Sorry. China has great bearing on all of us, and will have ever greater bearing on all of us. China recently acquired the largest auto production plant in my area and is due to start production there in the next year or so. Presumably, unions will be banned and any worker who objects will be executed and his organs used for donation at a profit. I shall say nothing if such a thing occurred, as I have no right to tell them how to run their plant.

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? Which bigger country exactly imposed legal reforms on Britain? I will agree that Britain's legal system was cruel and unjust - in fact up to the end of the 19th century it was so. But - and this is an important point here, it began to reform itself long before other comparable countries, including the US, ever did. The Dark Ages by the way refers to the period from about the 5th century ce until about 1066 and is so called because there are so few records, not because it was an awful time. Please dont try to argue British history with me, as I really dont enjoy exposing gaps in knowledge.

I disagree, I'm pretty sure that if Germany wasn't knocking on Britains door at the begining of the last centry, little changes would've been made or that the change would've been as quick. Indeed, the World Wars caused many changes in many countries.

I would really like to see your references for this. Legal reform in Britain was a slow process for sure, but began not long after the end of the Napoleonic wars in 1815. Germany was not put together as anything like a unified nation until the middle of the 19th century and for a long time the relations between Britain and Germany were neutral at worst. How the militarisation of the late 19th century and into the 20th effected (with an e) the reform of Britain's legal system which had started many decades prior are factors I simply do not see as being related.

My reference to the dark ages was in error, of that I will admit. But bare in mind that no ones knowledge is infallible, Ellen. Even yours.

I also need to see your references on this!

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This is where, by picking at the bits, you have lost the point. The point being that if we in the west did not go looking for organs from executed donors and paying ridiculous prices for them, then the Chinese would have no incentive to keep executing people for petty offences and none, after trials that are unfair and may not take place at all.

And you, by not reading the posts made, have lost my point. Even if no one in the world bought any of these organ from China, they would still continue to execute the prisoners. Why not take these organs and make good of something that you can not change? Why not make it so that these people did not die for nothing?

Why not make it clear to the Chinese via the UN that the rest of the world wants nothing to do with this horrific trade? Sure they can go on executing people all they like (see above), but they should not be selling the organs from the bodies for state income. No, wait - I just broke the law on not saying anything in order to allow evil to flourish. I shall expect a show trial lasting one hour and then for my organs to be sold for the profit of the government.

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We cannot attack the Chinese militarily but we can use political and economic pressure to encourage them to change their ways. You can accuse me of interfering with another sovereign nation's affairs and trying to impose my values on them, but these are not just my values - these are the values of civilised human conduct, based on the premise that if one wishes to be treated with dignity and respect then you must expect to treat others in the same way.

Thats right, but that includes respecting the way they wish to govern themselves. If the U.S. were to invade Britain because we thought your way of governing yourselves was too barbaric, you'd be outraged and rightfully so. You wouldn't want someone else to come into our country and tell you how to live. I know I wouldn't. Their house, their rules. You don't like it, don't live in their house then.

We all live in one neighbourhood these days. If your neighbour is shooting family members in the head in his backyard and selling their organs to the people over the road and to members of your own family, am I to believe you would just turn the volume on the TV up so you dont hear the gunfire?

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

the reform of Britain's legal system which had started many decades prior are factors I simply do not see as being related.

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OK. I will no longer say anything more on the subject

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ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

All in all this is what it comes down to. You have no say in China. I have no say in China. You can froth at the mouth all you want about the horrors going on across the world but at the end of the day, when you're snuggling in your nice cozy bed, you've done nothing to actually change anything that is going on in the Chinese government or anyother. Including your own, who sanctions the Chinese in what they do just as much as the U.S.

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

If our economy was internalized and limited to the importation of raw materials only.....Foreign investment would be irrelveant. I think us allowing them to invest in the level they have, is what's partially gotten us into so much trouble - Wouldn't you agree?

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I guess you really are serious.  I'm wondering how we're supposed to "give China the boot" without adopting our own version of the PRC's quasi-planned economy.  What are we supposed to do--ban all trade with all foreign nations except for the importation of raw materials?  Who exactly is going to be willing to SELL us raw materials under those conditions?  Or do you mean that we just put China on the shit list (with Cuba, right?) and merrily deal with every other country that doesn't want to invest in the dollar?

All this ignores the fact that China is an ideal ally.  It's a large stable geopolitical player with constant and predictable strategic interests.  Why do we want to fuck with them?  They haven't fucked with us.  They just sell mortgages and body parts.

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

If our economy was internalized and limited to the importation of raw materials only.....Foreign investment would be irrelveant. I think us allowing them to invest in the level they have, is what's partially gotten us into so much trouble - Wouldn't you agree?

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ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

I'll just say that it wasn't long ago that I listened to a translated speech from the number two or three in command Chinese General that said they would go as far as to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on Los Angeles if we interdicted/ helped defend Taiwan when they get ready to storm the Island shortly after the 2008 Olympics.

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ORIGINAL: Zensee

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ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

All in all this is what it comes down to. You have no say in China. I have no say in China. You can froth at the mouth all you want about the horrors going on across the world but at the end of the day, when you're snuggling in your nice cozy bed, you've done nothing to actually change anything that is going on in the Chinese government or anyother. Including your own, who sanctions the Chinese in what they do just as much as the U.S.

You certainly do have a say!

You can choose to go to China and get organs which very likely are harvested under inhumane conditions or wait, probably longer, for legitimately harvested organs in your own country (which is, I believe, the challenged posed by the LadyEllen in the first place).

This thread was not about whether we can change China's policy on it's treatment of political and petty criminals but how the individuals on this board would handle the moral and ethical and emotional and very real choice it poses.
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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Zensee, but wouldn't you rather get a vacation out of the deal with all the money you'd save by getting a transplant in China instead of the U.S.?
I know I would!
Think about it, probably your one chance in a lifetime to see the Great Wall of China, that new Dam they're building, that huge gorge, Hong Kong, Peiking and you'd still have about $20k American in your pocket!
Not a lot to think about my friend!