quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
No. You are not able to understand what you read, as you have demonstrated. Neither do I think that a course in comprehensive reading will benefit you. Thus you have now nominated yourself as being a candidate for having your posts blocked by me. During the next months I will when opportune consider your posts and may eventually decide to quietly block them.

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

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As for the issue of body parts, my ex husband was a buyer at a biomed firm.  He brought home a "parts list" one day.  Any organ you can think of, from any "person type" - male, female, adult, child, infant - you name it.  Up for sale.  From all sorts of countries.  Russia was a big one, actually.  These parts were purchased for cloning and other labratory experiements.  No clue how they had been come up for sale.  It was really creepy to actually read a price list for a toddler's organs.  This stuff is happening all over, folks.  Not just in China, not just to save initial illnesses. 

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However this is to ignore one simple factor, that every human life is meant to be sacred according to our own values if nothing else.

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some at least of the people being executed are there for such awful crimes as belonging to Christian movements inside China

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Executing someone for their beliefs, or for the sort of daftness our own children might try in the way of petty theft, is however clearly a ridiculous overreaction, and anything following on from such an execution equally wrong.

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Clearly the Chinese government must bear the responsibility for its policies

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
most people will do all they can to reduce their own suffering and to reduce the suffering of those whom they hold dear.

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

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As for the issue of body parts, my ex husband was a buyer at a biomed firm.  He brought home a "parts list" one day.  Any organ you can think of, from any "person type" - male, female, adult, child, infant - you name it.  Up for sale.  From all sorts of countries.  Russia was a big one, actually.  These parts were purchased for cloning and other labratory experiements.  No clue how they had been come up for sale.  It was really creepy to actually read a price list for a toddler's organs.  This stuff is happening all over, folks.  Not just in China, not just to save initial illnesses. 

But how were they acquired?  Legitimately? 

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ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Ellen, just a few things I'd like to point out:

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However this is to ignore one simple factor, that every human life is meant to be sacred according to our own values if nothing else.

Those are your values, but may not be anothers. Who are you to try and enforce your values on another society just for your peace of mind?

Well, if you look at the law of any civilised country, you will see there that occasioning the death of another is illegal, and that human rights laws are in place in many countries which guarantee a right to life. Maybe the choice of the word sacred was poor, but at the same time we live in a Christian culture from which our law is derived, and which is so effective in lobbying against voluntary euthanasia that thousands die in agony, so in that sense, yes it is sacred.

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some at least of the people being executed are there for such awful crimes as belonging to Christian movements inside China

And? They know what type of country they live in and they know what would happen if their religion is found out. They take their life in their own hands. There are Muslims in America who have violent hate crimes levied to them just because of their religion. Yet your worried about Christians in a country that you can do nothing to help? Also, I'm sure that Christians aren't the only ones being persecuted in China. Why aren't you rallying for any of them?

I'm not Christian. I care not one jot what religion people choose as long as they get to choose it and they get something out of it and dont bother me with it. But I do care a great deal that people are harassed, persecuted, abused, attacked and killed for their religion. I dont care for what they believe, but I will defend their absolute right to believe it and not suffer for it. By the way, it might interest you to know that I serve on a police body dedicated to the ending of hate crimes.

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Executing someone for their beliefs, or for the sort of daftness our own children might try in the way of petty theft, is however clearly a ridiculous overreaction, and anything following on from such an execution equally wrong.

Funny, but your country had been doing this for centries. I believe it was called the dark ages. And it only stopped last centry because it lost the muscle to continue it. A bigger country came along and slapped Briton upside it head.

? Which bigger country exactly imposed legal reforms on Britain? I will agree that Britain's legal system was cruel and unjust - in fact up to the end of the 19th century it was so. But - and this is an important point here, it began to reform itself long before other comparable countries, including the US, ever did. The Dark Ages by the way refers to the period from about the 5th century ce until about 1066 and is so called because there are so few records, not because it was an awful time. Please dont try to argue British history with me, as I really dont enjoy exposing gaps in knowledge.

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Clearly the Chinese government must bear the responsibility for its policies

And they do, wholeheartedly. But with 1.2 billion potential soldiers and nuclear capabilities, who's going to stop them? Who's going to move their troops in, topple that government and occupy that country until one that is "western friendly" is put up? That occupation would make Iraq look like a military vacation spot.

This is where, by picking at the bits, you have lost the point. The point being that if we in the west did not go looking for organs from executed donors and paying ridiculous prices for them, then the Chinese would have no incentive to keep executing people for petty offences and none, after trials that are unfair and may not take place at all. We cannot attack the Chinese militarily but we can use political and economic pressure to encourage them to change their ways. You can accuse me of interfering with another sovereign nation's affairs and trying to impose my values on them, but these are not just my values - these are the values of civilised human conduct, based on the premise that if one wishes to be treated with dignity and respect then you must expect to treat others in the same way.

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ORIGINAL: Rule

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
as for suffering and pain, that is a different matter altogether and I seemed to read into your posts that you do not feel any intervention is of value in those two instances, since intervention will only replace one thing with another equally negative thing.

I am not opposed to all medical intervention. Indeed, it hurts me that people are suffering and in pain and die unnecessarily from diseases. What I am opposed to is medical intervention that does not cure at all but instead often exacerbates the bad health of the patient.
 
Thanks for the clarification Rule - though I still think that as long as the risks are explained to the patient so that they can make an informed decision, then it is up to the patient to decide whether they want the original problem or a new one! I expect in most cases, patients will swap one form of suffering for a lesser one though, in all cases where there is no actual cure.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Were we living with the medical environment of even a century ago, then I would have been crippled by arthritis at age 21 and worse than that living in a state of perpetual pain until I wasted away by at the latest 30.

I am writing a book about chronic diseases. It may diminish the suffering of hundreds of millions of people. I have written another book during the past nine months, but at the moment I am reading my book about the chronic diseases again and intend to soon complete it. Arthritis - which has many different causes - has a chapter in it. I understand the suffering of people with arthritis. I have suffered from it myself, but I never went to a physician and dealt effectively with the problem myself - though unfortunately it is not cured and may return any moment. I understand the suffering and pain of people with arthritis, but I am violently opposed to many of the treatments that they get for it.

Understood. I'm trying to read "The Anatomy of an Illness" at the moment, which details how one guy got off his meds and dealt with his arthritis (same form as mine) successfully, back in the 50s or 60s I think. Never seem to get time though! Look forward to buying your book and keeping it by my bed for a year or two too LOL!

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
the answer I feel is not the "stiff upper lip" but rather that the medical interventions available to us make it possible for us to live productive lives regardless of most illnesses we might suffer.

Quite. However, many people are unemployed and it is my suspicion that nearly all of them suffer from an illness. In many cases their illness has been recognized officially. In many other cases their illness has not been recognized officially and such people are regarded as being lazy.

True. Even discounting as yet unacknowledged and unknown conditions, I know from having a period of depression that no one at work thought I was ill; I was just awkward, lazy, malingering etc. As for the unemployed, yes there are many of them with illnesses alike with depresssion if not depression itself, at least. But is that a function of chronic unemployment, or something innate to them regardless of employment status?

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
I think the point is that whilst death is a natural occurrence, in the meantime we are all conscious beings able to suffer a great deal of pain without any point to that pain.

There may be a spiritual point to suffering.
 
I think that depends. If one deliberately sets out to suffer for a spiritual reason, then yes, there is great value to it. The suffering of a dying cancer patient however, is purely pointless in my opinion.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
most people will do all they can to reduce their own suffering and to reduce the suffering of those whom they hold dear.

Death is the final consolation.
 
For myself I disagree. It is the knowledge that death is not the end that is the greater consolation.

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

I dont agree with railroading people (Chinese or otherwise) in order to harvest their organs.  It doesnt get more wrong than that. 

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ORIGINAL: MisPandora

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

I dont agree with railroading people (Chinese or otherwise) in order to harvest their organs.  It doesnt get more wrong than that. 

Is that because you're American and we have this "possession of self" thing to contend with?  There are other free countries in this world that subscribe to what's called Presumed Consent.  When a person dies, it is automatically assumed unless stated otherwise, that organs and tissues to benefit humanity will be donated.  It just simply happens.  There are also a few countries that the body becomes 'property of state', enabling donation and transplantation to occur.  Interestingly, those are countries whose waitlists are FAR less grandiose than our 92,000 people waiting here in the US.

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ORIGINAL: StrongButKind

Does transplant tourism that includes both exploitation of the poor and abuse and murder of political prisoners make it justifiable to amend US law to make deceased donation mandatory or at least presumed to increase available organs here?

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

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ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

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As for the issue of body parts, my ex husband was a buyer at a biomed firm.  He brought home a "parts list" one day.  Any organ you can think of, from any "person type" - male, female, adult, child, infant - you name it.  Up for sale.  From all sorts of countries.  Russia was a big one, actually.  These parts were purchased for cloning and other labratory experiements.  No clue how they had been come up for sale.  It was really creepy to actually read a price list for a toddler's organs.  This stuff is happening all over, folks.  Not just in China, not just to save initial illnesses. 

But how were they acquired?  Legitimately? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for the issue of body parts, my ex husband was a buyer at a biomed firm.  He brought home a "parts list" one day.  Any organ you can think of, from any "person type" - male, female, adult, child, infant - you name it.  Up for sale.  From all sorts of countries.  Russia was a big one, actually.  These parts were purchased for cloning and other labratory experiements.  No clue how they had been come up for sale.  It was really creepy to actually read a price list for a toddler's organs.  This stuff is happening all over, folks.  Not just in China, not just to save initial illnesses. 

But how were they acquired?  Legitimately? 

In the US, people can donate towards "research and education" through organizations like the National Disease Resource Interchange.  http://www.ndriresource.org/  There's hundreds of these organizations....and they supply researchers with organs, tissues, and cells for them to do their work.  They also provide biomed companies with "demo parts" -- say, a leg to be preserved to demonstrate a new orthopedic device a company is marketing.

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ORIGINAL: MisPandora

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

I dont agree with railroading people (Chinese or otherwise) in order to harvest their organs.  It doesnt get more wrong than that. 

Is that because you're American and we have this "possession of self" thing to contend with?  There are other free countries in this world that subscribe to what's called Presumed Consent.  When a person dies, it is automatically assumed unless stated otherwise, that organs and tissues to benefit humanity will be donated.  It just simply happens.  There are also a few countries that the body becomes 'property of state', enabling donation and transplantation to occur.  Interestingly, those are countries whose waitlists are FAR less grandiose than our 92,000 people waiting here in the US.

quote:

Well, if you look at the law of any civilised country, you will see there that occasioning the death of another is illegal, and that human rights laws are in place in many countries which guarantee a right to life. Maybe the choice of the word sacred was poor, but at the same time we live in a Christian culture from which our law is derived, and which is so effective in lobbying against voluntary euthanasia that thousands die in agony, so in that sense, yes it is sacred.

quote:

I'm not Christian. I care not one jot what religion people choose as long as they get to choose it and they get something out of it and dont bother me with it. But I do care a great deal that people are harassed, persecuted, abused, attacked and killed for their religion. I dont care for what they believe, but I will defend their absolute right to believe it and not suffer for it. By the way, it might interest you to know that I serve on a police body dedicated to the ending of hate crimes.

quote:

? Which bigger country exactly imposed legal reforms on Britain? I will agree that Britain's legal system was cruel and unjust - in fact up to the end of the 19th century it was so. But - and this is an important point here, it began to reform itself long before other comparable countries, including the US, ever did. The Dark Ages by the way refers to the period from about the 5th century ce until about 1066 and is so called because there are so few records, not because it was an awful time. Please dont try to argue British history with me, as I really dont enjoy exposing gaps in knowledge.

quote:

This is where, by picking at the bits, you have lost the point. The point being that if we in the west did not go looking for organs from executed donors and paying ridiculous prices for them, then the Chinese would have no incentive to keep executing people for petty offences and none, after trials that are unfair and may not take place at all.

quote:

We cannot attack the Chinese militarily but we can use political and economic pressure to encourage them to change their ways. You can accuse me of interfering with another sovereign nation's affairs and trying to impose my values on them, but these are not just my values - these are the values of civilised human conduct, based on the premise that if one wishes to be treated with dignity and respect then you must expect to treat others in the same way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for the issue of body parts, my ex husband was a buyer at a biomed firm.  He brought home a "parts list" one day.  Any organ you can think of, from any "person type" - male, female, adult, child, infant - you name it.  Up for sale.  From all sorts of countries.  Russia was a big one, actually.  These parts were purchased for cloning and other labratory experiements.  No clue how they had been come up for sale.  It was really creepy to actually read a price list for a toddler's organs.  This stuff is happening all over, folks.  Not just in China, not just to save initial illnesses. 

But how were they acquired?  Legitimately? 

In the US, people can donate towards "research and education" through organizations like the National Disease Resource Interchange.  http://www.ndriresource.org/  There's hundreds of these organizations....and they supply researchers with organs, tissues, and cells for them to do their work.  They also provide biomed companies with "demo parts" -- say, a leg to be preserved to demonstrate a new orthopedic device a company is marketing.

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ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
Hmmmm. You know the interesting part about some of these consent forms? They include usage for cosmetic procedures, which most of us would understand as the use of skin on burns victims and so on. But, according to my magazine a lot of this material is sold for use in the cosmetics industry for perfectly healthy people to reduce the wrinkles around their eyes and so on. Lovely thought.

And it doesnt stop with those who died; the cosmetics companies also take aborted babies for their miracle creams and lotions.

E

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

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ORIGINAL: MisPandora

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ORIGINAL: marieToo

I dont agree with railroading people (Chinese or otherwise) in order to harvest their organs.  It doesnt get more wrong than that. 

Is that because you're American and we have this "possession of self" thing to contend with?  There are other free countries in this world that subscribe to what's called Presumed Consent.  When a person dies, it is automatically assumed unless stated otherwise, that organs and tissues to benefit humanity will be donated.  It just simply happens.  There are also a few countries that the body becomes 'property of state', enabling donation and transplantation to occur.  Interestingly, those are countries whose waitlists are FAR less grandiose than our 92,000 people waiting here in the US.

MisPandora:

I am sure you separated my statement from it's context.  The "railroad" people comment was in direct reference to a discussion that was going on about taking Chinese criminals (even for minor crimes) and executing  them specifically to sell their organs. 

To give consent to the usage of your organs in the case of one's death, is something entirely different, that I spoke to very clearly here.  There is a huge difference between exploiting humans for their body parts and donating organs legitmately through consent.  The former is inexcusable and I doubt my feeling on that has anything to do with being an American with a "possesion of self" issue.