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RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 6:26:59 PM   
BDSM05478


Posts: 417
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
FREE MEN AND WOMEN DO NOT CARRY PAPERS. How you going to deal with that in your world of "MACHT SCHNELL, PAPERS!!"???


And to that I say, "License, Registration and insurence, Please" and while your pulling that outta your wallet from infront of your social security card...... 

_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 6:29:39 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
FREE MEN AND WOMEN DO NOT CARRY PAPERS. How you going to deal with that in your world of "MACHT SCHNELL, PAPERS!!"???


And to that I say, "License, Registration and insurence, Please" and while your pulling that outta your wallet from infront of your social security card...... 


Sure, the police have probable cause (like you are pulled over speeding) to detain you, you need to provide ID.

The point I made is that I am climbing out of the surf with my board under my arm and they demand papers.

Please clarify what PROBABLE CAUSE the police have to suspect me of a crime?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to BDSM05478)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 6:30:12 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
FREE MEN AND WOMEN DO NOT CARRY PAPERS. How you going to deal with that in your world of "MACHT SCHNELL, PAPERS!!"???


And to that I say, "License, Registration and insurence, Please" and while your pulling that outta your wallet from infront of your social security card......


I don't carry papers, and as I am not driving, there is no State Code requiring me to. Copies of the Vehicle Papers and my State D/L are in the car for that occasion. Next?

At this point I ask the question: "Am I under arrest?"

If the answer is "Yes", the next question is "What Charge".

If the answer is "No", the next question is, "May I go now?"

If the answer to "May I go now?" is "No", the VERY NEXT QUESTION IS:

"Am I under arrest?"

3 times though that loop establishs to the court that I *am* being detained unlawfully.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 2/25/2007 6:38:54 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BDSM05478)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 6:59:23 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
FREE MEN AND WOMEN DO NOT CARRY PAPERS. How you going to deal with that in your world of "MACHT SCHNELL, PAPERS!!"???


And to that I say, "License, Registration and insurence, Please" and while your pulling that outta your wallet from infront of your social security card...... 


Sure, the police have probable cause (like you are pulled over speeding) to detain you, you need to provide ID.

The point I made is that I am climbing out of the surf with my board under my arm and they demand papers.

Please clarify what PROBABLE CAUSE the police have to suspect me of a crime?

Sinergy

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?
Fargle, I thought that when a police officer asks you to identify yourself you are obligated to?
For all they know you could be a wanted criminal. They don't know who you are.
I've never had a cop approach me and ask for i.d. unless I was speeding or something like that. And on the (very) few occaisions that's happened they were very polite about it.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 7:05:35 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
FREE MEN AND WOMEN DO NOT CARRY PAPERS. How you going to deal with that in your world of "MACHT SCHNELL, PAPERS!!"???


And to that I say, "License, Registration and insurence, Please" and while your pulling that outta your wallet from infront of your social security card......


Sure, the police have probable cause (like you are pulled over speeding) to detain you, you need to provide ID.

The point I made is that I am climbing out of the surf with my board under my arm and they demand papers.

Please clarify what PROBABLE CAUSE the police have to suspect me of a crime?

Sinergy

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?
Fargle, I thought that when a police officer asks you to identify yourself you are obligated to?


I'm sure the Police would like that to be so, but no.

THINGS such as Cars, Boats, Real Estate, Slaves *may* need to be registered, but thankfully FREE PEOPLE are still FREE, and don't need papers to prove it.

quote:


For all they know you could be a wanted criminal. They don't know who you are.


Tough shit. Wait until I commit a crime, arrest me, and then run my prints. Other than that?

"I have appointments to keep, Am I under arrest?"
"May I go now?"
"Am I under arrest?"
"May I go now?"
"Am I under arrest?"
"May I go now?"

quote:


I've never had a cop approach me and ask for i.d. unless I was speeding or something like that. And on the (very) few occaisions that's happened they were very polite about it.


Me either, there is a great deal of "Hypothetical" about this. IF a Cop wants to be an asshole, they'll just sucker-punch you, or jack you from behind.




_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 7:06:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?
Fargle, I thought that when a police officer asks you to identify yourself you are obligated to?
For all they know you could be a wanted criminal. They don't know who you are.
I've never had a cop approach me and ask for i.d. unless I was speeding or something like that. And on the (very) few occaisions that's happened they were very polite about it.


I have never been asked to produce identification, I find it rather disturbing and odd that a cop can just randomly pick a person out on a beach and demand they show them who they are... I suppose Sinergy could have been raping a dolphin or something, but it seems highly improbable that there was much of a crime he could have committed on his surfboard in the ocean. And no, you do not leave your identification lying around on a beach.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 7:08:58 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Perhaps nowadays, the correct response is:

"Given the rise in Identity Theft, personal identifying information can only be provided with a triplicate written request, sent to this P.O. Box."



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 7:11:41 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Perhaps nowadays, the correct response is:

"Given the rise in Identity Theft, personal identifying information can only be provided with a triplicate written request, sent to this P.O. Box."




I shred anything even remotely helpful to people that steal identities. And I would not take my ID to a beach and leave it there... the most I would leave is things I did not care about being taken.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 7:34:21 PM   
BDSM05478


Posts: 417
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Sure, the police have probable cause (like you are pulled over speeding) to detain you, you need to provide ID.

The point I made is that I am climbing out of the surf with my board under my arm and they demand papers.

Please clarify what PROBABLE CAUSE the police have to suspect me of a crime?

Sinergy


We'll for all we know they could have had an armed robbery, with a suspect that fits your discription and was wearing similar surf wear and  that is their probable cause. Hello since the so called patriot act the title of land of the free is a joke. The ATF had no probable cause to raid my house and take my guns and inconvience me for a whole year but they did anyway.

And about that lil example I gave, the DL ect wasn't really the main focus it was a lighthearted way of pointing out we do indeed carry papers. Just try to get a job w/o a ss #, of course you could do what alot of illegals do and just buy some innocent american citizens that has been a victum of identity theft.........

_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 7:42:23 PM   
BDSM05478


Posts: 417
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?
Fargle, I thought that when a police officer asks you to identify yourself you are obligated to?
For all they know you could be a wanted criminal. They don't know who you are.
I've never had a cop approach me and ask for i.d. unless I was speeding or something like that. And on the (very) few occaisions that's happened they were very polite about it.


In every state I have lived, that is the case, if you can't show proof of who you are and they have reason (even unfounded, delusional reason) to catagorize you as "suspicious" they haul you in till you can prove to them who you are and what your business is. I have no idea if it's legal and right for them to do so, I just know I can't afford the time and money it would cost to not cooperate, so I do.

_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 8:05:11 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?



I could say something like that.

My point (and fargle's point) is that I am not legally required to do so, and the police (should) know that.

Next question?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 8:07:07 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?
Fargle, I thought that when a police officer asks you to identify yourself you are obligated to?
For all they know you could be a wanted criminal. They don't know who you are.
I've never had a cop approach me and ask for i.d. unless I was speeding or something like that. And on the (very) few occaisions that's happened they were very polite about it.


In every state I have lived, that is the case, if you can't show proof of who you are and they have reason (even unfounded, delusional reason) to catagorize you as "suspicious" they haul you in till you can prove to them who you are and what your business is.


I suspect that is what the police would have you believe. There is however no law in the State of New York requiring such a thing. Now, if you can provide me a citation in New York Law, I'd love to see it, but I did a brief survey, and aside from VINs, and Identity Theft, etc, there's nothing there.

quote:


I have no idea if it's legal and right for them to do so, I just know I can't afford the time and money it would cost to not cooperate, so I do.


Sure. If you disobey a police officer, you can be shot dead. It's generally wiser to just go the path of least resistance when confronted with thugs, assuming you're not suitably armed. And even then, justified defense against a police officer is generally a real bitch to prove, too.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to BDSM05478)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 8:08:10 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Perhaps nowadays, the correct response is:

"Given the rise in Identity Theft, personal identifying information can only be provided with a triplicate written request, sent to this P.O. Box."




The post office will not sign for packages.

The UPS store will.

The only address I ever give anybody, including my driver's license and the IRS, is my legal address at a UPS store 30 miles away from where I hang my hat.

I am not in the habit of bringing strangers home.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 8:44:37 PM   
BDSM05478


Posts: 417
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I suspect that is what the police would have you believe. There is however no law in the State of New York requiring such a thing. Now, if you can provide me a citation in New York Law, I'd love to see it, but I did a brief survey, and aside from VINs, and Identity Theft, etc, there's nothing there.

Sure. If you disobey a police officer, you can be shot dead. It's generally wiser to just go the path of least resistance when confronted with thugs, assuming you're not suitably armed. And even then, justified defense against a police officer is generally a real bitch to prove, too.


I am no lawyer but I have been detained for 2 hours on the lower level of the GWB while my friends car was "searched" and the guys in the car were searched too, all because we took a wrong turn and got lost in Harlem.

Or what happened to a past co worker of mine. http://www.sussexcountyjustice.com/home.html



_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 8:48:55 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSM05478

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?
Fargle, I thought that when a police officer asks you to identify yourself you are obligated to?
For all they know you could be a wanted criminal. They don't know who you are.
I've never had a cop approach me and ask for i.d. unless I was speeding or something like that. And on the (very) few occaisions that's happened they were very polite about it.


In every state I have lived, that is the case, if you can't show proof of who you are and they have reason (even unfounded, delusional reason) to catagorize you as "suspicious" they haul you in till you can prove to them who you are and what your business is.


I suspect that is what the police would have you believe. There is however no law in the State of New York requiring such a thing. Now, if you can provide me a citation in New York Law, I'd love to see it, but I did a brief survey, and aside from VINs, and Identity Theft, etc, there's nothing there.

quote:


I have no idea if it's legal and right for them to do so, I just know I can't afford the time and money it would cost to not cooperate, so I do.


Sure. If you disobey a police officer, you can be shot dead. It's generally wiser to just go the path of least resistance when confronted with thugs, assuming you're not suitably armed. And even then, justified defense against a police officer is generally a real bitch to prove, too.




Fargle, N.Y. is a messed-up state anyway.
Wearn't they searching people's packages, breifcases and backpacks on the subway in NYC last year?
And you can't carry a gun in NYC at all. (Unless you're a criminal!)

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 9:42:42 PM   
CassandraAlexis


Posts: 44
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Sinergy, couldn't you say something like; "Sure, my I.D. is in my vehicle, Officer" or something like that?



I could say something like that.

My point (and fargle's point) is that I am not legally required to do so, and the police (should) know that.

Next question?

Sinergy


Actually it depends on the state. Some states do have laws requiring that you identify yourself to a police officer when they ask and the Supreme Court has upheld these laws as constitutional.

The states that dont, the police would have the right to detain or arrest you until they could determine your identity if they believe that you are "suspicious" or have "probable cause". If they cannot prove that you are, then you dont have to. However, I have a feeling that if you were or werent would be something that would be fought in court after the fact since I doubt a police man would ask you and then admit you werent acting suspiciously.

"All nine Justices agreed that a person who is not behaving in a way that gives rise to an articulable suspicion of criminality may not be required to state his name or show identification. All nine Justices also agreed that under the Court's prior precedents, the police could ask a person who has been subject to a Terry (suspicious person) stop for his name.


cassandra

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/25/2007 10:45:57 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Remember, "You have the right to remain silent".

If you actually DO remain silent however, you'll probably get the shit beaten out of you.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to CassandraAlexis)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 1:49:58 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would expect that you would not make these statements without listening to the broadcast.. there is a 9 year old Canadian citizen whose parents are Iranian, they were stopped on a plane going to canada because there was an emergency landing. The 9 year old has chronic asthma, and they are in detention because if bureaucratic bullshit, as are many others.


Julia....

I am on dial-up and can't watch you-tube or listen to news clips without it taking an hour. I am speaking in regard to the general plight of illegal aliens. Like I said before... you and I almost always agree on this crapy goverment stuff.....but this is one of the few that we don't see eye to eye on.


quote:

You may not have sympathy for the kids locked up without school or allowed to socialize wuith other kids... I thought you were more of a humanitarian



C'mon Julia.  I love kids..... how many folks on collarme do you know that simotaneously sponsor five little league / Babe Ruth teams lol

Like I said.... I haven't watched or listened to the interviews /clips....but my general thoughts regarding illegal immigrants draging their kids with them for a periless journey across the caustic Sonoran desert..... it's akin to a crackhead robbing a liquor store while they leave their kids in a running car out in the parking lot. If the dude who owns the liquor store comes out blastn' and one of the children are hit.....who's to blame?



- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 2/26/2007 1:52:38 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 2:27:41 AM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHousehold

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger


charging us three bucks a gallon for gas




Come and live in the UK, where we pay $6.50 for petrol...


One of the best things I like about the collarme boards is my opportunity to read various opinions from our friends in the UK and elsewhere in the world. 

However.... I've seen more than a few of you from the UK make an erroneous comparison to what we pay in the states for petrol vs. what you folks in the UK pay for it.

The erroneous part is in that you have a value-added tax system where the citizenry is taxed through the sale of goods and services to pay for its social programs. We have a system that encompasses direct taxation through the taxing of ones production. So while it looks like the good folks in the UK are paying two to three times the price for petrol, you're not.  

Now... if you wanna make the argument that the average citizen through out Canada, the UK and the EU pays a higher percentage of taxes per dollar earned…..I’ll agree with you



- R


< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 2/26/2007 3:05:39 AM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to TheHousehold)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Locking Up the Huddled Masses - 2/26/2007 6:35:30 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would expect that you would not make these statements without listening to the broadcast.. there is a 9 year old Canadian citizen whose parents are Iranian, they were stopped on a plane going to canada because there was an emergency landing. The 9 year old has chronic asthma, and they are in detention because if bureaucratic bullshit, as are many others.


Julia....

I am on dial-up and can't watch you-tube or listen to news clips without it taking an hour. I am speaking in regard to the general plight of illegal aliens. Like I said before... you and I almost always agree on this crapy goverment stuff.....but this is one of the few that we don't see eye to eye on.


quote:

You may not have sympathy for the kids locked up without school or allowed to socialize wuith other kids... I thought you were more of a humanitarian



C'mon Julia.  I love kids..... how many folks on collarme do you know that simotaneously sponsor five little league / Babe Ruth teams lol

Like I said.... I haven't watched or listened to the interviews /clips....but my general thoughts regarding illegal immigrants draging their kids with them for a periless journey across the caustic Sonoran desert..... it's akin to a crackhead robbing a liquor store while they leave their kids in a running car out in the parking lot. If the dude who owns the liquor store comes out blastn' and one of the children are hit.....who's to blame?



- R


Ranger, those kids do belong in school, in Mexico, not in the U.S.

And you're right about gas (Petrol) prices in England and Ireland.
Most of it's tax to pay for all those cradle to grave social programs that they have there.

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
Profile   Post #: 200
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