Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (Full Version)

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SusanofO -> Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 9:22:21 PM)

I am asking this Q, because I've received one or two letters lately, that made me contemplate this topic.

I realize that submissives want to be dominated, and that Dominants want/need to dominate them. That is all well and good, and fine by me (even though I am a Switch, I still do love being dominated, by a Dominant). However -

*Where does a "line" need to be drawn (if anywhere) as far as a Dominant wanting to change a submissive to "fit" their desires?
 
I can  understand a Dominant wanting to change the way a sumissive addresses them, or choose their clothing, or have them serve them in particular ways, etc. and I do get the idea that basically what the Dominant wants, the Dominant can/should expect to receive. I really do, and basically in this regard, I strive to cooperate, and be pleasing to someone. I also don't consider myself to be "just" a "bottom." I consider myself a submissive.

However, my question is this: If a submissive is so utterly un-like what a Dominant thinks they need or want, in that they feel compelled to change almost everything about them, or otherwise alter their basic personality, isn't this really more a matter of simple incompatibility between two people, that maybe are just not a "good match"?
 
When is "enough" domination really "too much" in this regard? Is there a "line" you draw in  your own relationships at all, re: This kind of thing? Or a philopsophy you follow?
 
Any thoughts? From Dominants, slaves, subs - all who have an opinion, please feel free to answer.

This isn't a "whine" btw - it is a real question. Thanks for any replies.   

- Susan



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Do you want to "just "dominate, or completely change your submissive/slave? (4/11/2007 9:26:41 PM)

Personally, if I have to rebuild someone, I am probably going to lose interest. I want to enjoy the slave I select and let them grow with me.  I dont want to take someone who is mismatched and remake them. That often fails, its a lot of work and very little gain for it.  You cant intrinsically change someone. 

DV



hisannabelle -> RE: Do you want to "just "dominate, or completely change your submissive/slave? (4/11/2007 9:30:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
*Where does a "line" need to be drawn (if anywhere) as far as a Dominant wanting to change a submissive to "fit" their desires?
However, my Q is: If a submissive is so utterly un -like what a Dominant thinks they need or want, in that they feel compelled to change almost everything about them, or otherwise alter their basic personality, isn't this really more a matter of simple incompatibility between two people that maybe are just not a "good match"?


people draw it where they want to draw it. some people want to get involved originally with others with whom they are compatible in many areas; some don't care, and want to mold/be molded to the extreme. for us, we have a happy medium. there are things that are important to me, like being with someone who supports my school and career goals, etc. and things that are important to him, like being with someone who doesn't equate management of all of their life's details with dominance. we are compatible in those areas (and in a lot of others). then again, there are areas where i change for him. originally, rape play and knife play freaked me the hell out and no way would i ever have chosen to be with someone who wanted me to do that. we've done rape play, and we are planning to do knife play eventually (we've done a teeny bit back when we first got together, but nothing heavy). i used to hate masturbation and have a very low sex drive; now i love it and have a relatively high sex drive. i'm extremely messy, and i'm working on fixing that because he's extremely neat and i know my messiness drives him crazy. stuff like that.

now, that's not to say that i wouldn't be willing to give up my school and career goals at this point in the relationship if that's what he wanted, but i wouldn't originally choose to accept a collar from someone (at least not again; this was what happened in my last relationship) who didn't respect that part of my life. in my experience, i tend to choose partners originally based on compatibility, but i also don't have a problem being molded by my partner, and in most cases, i enjoy being pushed past my boundaries and forced to look at things in different ways. even though i choose partners based on certain things, that doesn't mean i hold onto those as hard and fast limits once i'm collared...it's not my choice to make anymore.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just "dominate, or completely change your submissive/slave? (4/11/2007 9:32:04 PM)

Thanks for the reply, Diunrnal. I ask because some Doms who've written me, (again I am not whining, I know exactly how to handle these types, as far as my own safety) appear to be getting off on the power of altering someone's basic personality, just for the "power kick", apparently.

While I can see how this might be a momentary "thrill" (even for both people), I wonder how it would actually work in a LTR, without sending some poor sub to a psychiatrist's couch, for instance.

Especially if someone is going to end up questioning whether or not they are "good enough" on some perennial basis, w/not much "positive feed-back" when they do things "right". It doesn't strike me as particularly emotionally "healthy", but in some sense, I can see the point (maybe in not such a pervasive way, though).  

But anyway, it got me thinking anyway, and I wondered how others felt about this. I suppose it may be a matter of personal tastes, etc. but is there a "limit"? I tend to think there is, I guess (for me).  

annabelle: Thanks for the reply. I agree (philosophically speaking, anyway.) Heck, I was just thinking of that Q the other day, on whether someone would have plastic surgery for a Dominant. I'd maybe do it, so I really don't consider myself "uncooperative", overall.

- Susan



sleazybutterfly -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 9:33:09 PM)

I don't know one thing M has tried to change about me.  He is there for me, and builds me up if I start to doubt myself, but has never told me anything he thinks I need change in order to fit what he wants.  I think it's okay for them to want to help make you better, maybe to give you confidence or a sounding board.  I don't think they ought to try to change the basics of who you are though.  I don't feel you can give that part of yourself up, if you do, you lose the essence of who you are (sub or slave).  I know that a lot will disagree, more-so for slaves, but this is my opinion and not a fact for everyone.  I love that he believes in me, and encourages me, but I am happy with myself the way I am, and wouldn't change those quirky things for anyone.

You can still keep who are you, if someone wants to change you that much, they aren't going to have you, they are going to have someone totally different in the end.  If that is going to happen, they might as well find someone else to begin with.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 9:35:21 PM)

That is my basic idea of what a good Dominant would want to do with their sub/slave as well, sleazybutterfly. Thanks for the reply.

I gotta do something else on my PC (for someone ) right now, but I will return in about an hour. Thanks people, for any more replies.

- Susan



crouchingtigress -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 9:41:52 PM)

i dont want a fixer upper....i dont mind painting, cleaning and gardening , but i have no interest in living in a construction zone for months on end....to endless.





sambamanslilgirl -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 9:44:30 PM)

when Daddy and i met, the first thing He said was "i'm not here to change you, honey. i want you to become more successful than you are now and to reach the potential i know you have deep inside."  honestly, i was spooked by that phrase because i have met "doms" (as well as nillas) who were determined to change me from the woman i was already into someone they desired. i don't want someone to change me because i will resist and fight every step of the way ...either accept me as i am or part company immediately. i can see that Daddy has molded and shaped me into a better woman than i was 8 months ago however he didn't change one single bit about me.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 9:44:57 PM)

Good point, crounchingtigress, IMO, and thanks sambamanslilone, and others, for the feed-back (because there are times I can start to wonder if I am not a little "crazy for disagreeing with someone else, particularly a Dominant, even if I don't seem to be that way, maybe).

I mean, I can understand the "challenge of it all", and the power trip for some Doms (at least a little, I mean, we are talking about a D/s relationship), but - if the emotional power exchange goes too "deep" (for me anyway) it just strikes me as emotionally dangerous to someone, possibly (maybe me, maybe some others, too).
I dunno. 

It is very rarely the possibly "overboard" physical stuff that ever concerns me, somehow. It's the emotional stuff, and fall-out from maybe "going too far" (or being pushed too far by someone) in this regard, that can scare me.

And I don't really consider myself a "wuss" (truly). I will let people  "push my limits", etc - I just want to know they care about me, as much as themselves, I guess.

- Susan



spanklette -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 9:58:10 PM)

I the biggest truth about me is that I will always be me. He can change the details and push limits and boundaries, but underneath it all I will remain the same person I started out. Even as I grow as a submissive and I grow into Him, we haven't changed....just merged, I guess.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 10:00:10 PM)

Thanks spanklette.  

I guess I am talking abot mind-fu_king someone in an emotional way. It has never been a favorite "kink" of mine (in fact I consider it pretty much a "hard limit"). 

I guess I am talking about continually setting someone up to "fail", thinking this will make them more "humble" or something.

I know it's all "situational" but basically, I tend to think that doing this to someone is mostly BS. But again, that's just me. Maybe some do appreciate this, or it can be done in a way that is not damaging to a sub in a long-term way. I dunno.

If anyone has examples where this does work well, I am completely open to hearing abut them, because I am not particularly well-versed, as far as the art of the emotional Mindf_k is concerned (I've pretty much avoided the whole area as a "kink", having received a general impression, that it may well not be something I'd appreciate).

Maybe it can work, and does - I am just not sure. I am open to learning new stuff, I am. I am confused about this whole idea, and area of bdsm.

Anyway, thanks for listening, and the comments and opinions.

- Susan



hisannabelle -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 10:15:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I guess I am talking about continually setting someone up to "fail", thinking this will make them more "humble" or something.


greetings susan,

i would not want to get involved with someone who made a regular practice of this. He's never set me up to fail, thank heavens, and i hope He never does. it wouldn't serve any other purpose than to destroy my self esteem, which only devalues me as property, so there's really no point to it. i suppose for some it could serve some sort of sadistic kink; He is a sadist, but i doubt He'd ever take pleasure in a scenario like this.

i would also be interested in hearing from people for whom this kind of thing works. but it's not something that i personally associate with changing myself for Him...along those lines, i associate things like learning new/different/healthier habits (like being less messy and more minimalist, managing my money and time better, knitting more and freaking out about Other People's Problems less, stuff like that)...things He encourages me to do to be a better submissive and a better person. i don't associate changing oneself with being set up to fail, personally, but i think both are equally important in terms of discussion and both are really interesting. (i also think it's interesting to see how you and others might make that association.)

annabelle.



SusanofO -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 10:17:33 PM)

Thanks for the reply, annabelle. I am genuinely wondering where people (maybe especially Dominants) consider this "line of acceptability" to be - if there is one.

What is expecting "too much" from a submissive?

- Susan  



WilliamWizer -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 10:35:51 PM)

If I need to change who she is then she is not what I'm searching.
of course I will change her in some way (how she dress, how she speaks, ...) but not to the point of changing who she is.
I will help her to become better but not a diferent person only a better version of herself.



BondageTopJere -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 10:39:17 PM)

Real mindf_cking is an extremely dangerous place, not so much because its easy to do (it isnt if the recipient has even modicum of self-identity), but rather because it can have VERY unintended reactiions and consequences, and those consequences can last for a very long time. Emotions are truly wierd things; "nature" in their drive, "Nuture" in thier expression, and interrelated in ways that cannot be predicted in any way shape or form.

quote:

 
I guess I am talking about continually setting someone up to "fail", thinking this will make them more "humble" or something.


I can't see this paticular instance of emotional mindf_cking as anything more than emotional abuse, no matter which way I look at it.  I've seen vanilla types on the recieving end of this, and the results tend to be drug addiction, depression, self mutilation and 1 attempted suicide by a friend of a friend (cliche I know, but true nonetheless).

Extraordinarily high expectations are one thing, and might be a valid tool in order to break down barriers if the sub considered themsevles especially self-reliant in some aspect of form of another, or to just to see how far they can go on thier own before they hit the"break" point and realize that they simply can't and turn towards thier Dom for affirmation.  All this crosses over into emotional mindf_ck territory when the Dom doesn't explain or show understanding that the standard was never ment to be meet in the first place, and drives them past that point.  Thats the point where it turns from a valid teaching tool, into just plain abuse and emotionally mindf-cking someone.

Then again, I've gotten a very strong need to protect against exactly this sort of thing, so I'm probably more than a bit biased when it comes to this subject.



CuriousLord -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 10:44:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
*Where does a "line" need to be drawn (if anywhere) as far as a Dominant wanting to change a submissive to "fit" their desires?

Their choice.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
If a submissive is so utterly un-like what a Dominant thinks they need or want, in that they feel compelled to change almost everything about them, or otherwise alter their basic personality, isn't this really more a matter of simple incompatibility between two people, that maybe are just not a "good match"?

Again, depends on what they want. If part of the sub's personality is a willingness to change, then one must acknowledge aspect of the sub's nature. If it's not, then it's not.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
When is "enough" domination really "too much" in this regard? Is there a "line" you draw in your own relationships at all, re: This kind of thing? Or a philopsophy you follow?

You must realize at this lifestyle is about choice and options. Even general agreement is not necessary. I haven't read the other replies yet. I imagine that most say it's up to you.
If you are looking for the community's guidiance, if it does its job properly, you're only going to end up with a choice. If you want to be told what to do and/or believe with regards to this issue, look for a Dom for that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Any thoughts? From Dominants, slaves, subs - all who have an opinion, please feel free to answer.

Honestly, I'd have posted this in the General Discussion board. Not that it's a big deal, just a comment.
---
In a bottom line, I'd like to say that you should find what works for you. What you feel. You will find people out there who believe just about anything on the subject- the answers you get will be arbitrary based on this fact.
As best an answer can be given..
If you're a sub, feel free to submit yourself for a Dom who wants to change you, or look for a Dom who doesn't, at your discression.
If you're a slave, the Master/Mistress has the right to change you without your say in the matter (being the important distinction between sub and slave). As a slave, if you're good with that, no problem. If you're not, you should reconsider your identity.
With an eye to philosophy..
My definition of self is variant. I change. A powerful being would be able to change me rapidly and without opposition. I follow truth and knowledge to whatever ends.
Because I know of no sufficiently powerful being, I'm rather static outside of internal growth.
I believe in this definition of self. To be open to knew thoughts and ideas- to readily give up long-held beliefs for demonstratable ideas and those unrealized concepts inline with accepted apothems.
For a weak being, this has one be very open to manipulation. To a grave degree, all but the most ignorant individuals are open to this. Acknowledging this aspect and growing in it is to be powerful.
Knowledge -is- power. Anyone with sufficiently more knowledge than you can control, manipulate, and change you, so long as this one has the ability to stimulate your mind- a closed mind is a defense, but it only exacerbates the weakness.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 11:01:11 PM)

Setting someone up to fail and changing them are two vastly different things.  I LOVE changing people, that is why I am a daddy.  I have to be careful that I don't pick someone who needs TO much nurturing but I do love it. 

Nothing like taking a woman out and getting her a whole new hairstyle, hair color, and having a whole new makeups style forced upon her.   That is short term.  I was mentored by a domme who loved taking lesbians and teaching them to crave cock and cum or to love anal.  One of only two women who have ever evoked submissive tendencies from me, she was truly amazing.

I would ONLY do that in a committed long term relationship but I hope that anyone I am with comes out different at the end, a better person but one shaped a bit by and for me. 



WhiplashSmile -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/11/2007 11:51:14 PM)

I tend to look for somebody who's personality I don't want to alter. Trust me, it's impossible to alter a personality, however Dom/mes may be able to change behavior.   I believe it's a waste of time for any Dom/me to attempt to alter anothers personality.  I don't want to be with somebody I feel I have to completely change. 

In terms of shaping another, I like to find out what struggles or weaknesses they have, such really bad habits or self defeating behaviors.  If I can change and shape this, the submissive actually feels better about themselves.  Boost of self esteem and value.   When somebody feels good about themselves they tend to do a better job at pleasing you.  Just a little food for thought on this one.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 1:36:35 AM)

Oh heck I was totally broken when he found me and in need of rebuilding.  And he wanted to invest his time and energy rebuilding me.  He loved doing it.  Did he change me? Well he changed me from being broken to being whole, and confident and happy.  Did he change my basic personality?  Not at all.  He opened the doors to my very essence and taught me to see and love myself.  He developed the "me" that I had hidden so tightly away I thought I was gone for good.  He released the woman that I kept caged and hidden from the world. 

I remember one day I was at the Metropolitan Museum of art (He sent me to NYC for my birthday) and I contacted him because I was standing there staring at a Renoir (the two girls at the piano, which I swear is my sister and I) with tears running down my face because I was so intoxicated by all the beauty that was around me, and I contacted him to tell him that.  He said "The bud has blossomed."  It was a defining moment, when I went from being afraid of my own shadow to being in NYC for the very first time, getting around on my own and excitedly enjoying the hell out of myself.  It was a life-changing event.

I had a conversation with someone just today, in which I said people are so afraid of change - they always assume change means something bad.  What if change is...........good?  What if it's better?? 

One can change for the better.  That does not mean changing the core essence of who you are. I see a lot of people saying, "I like who I am, I don't need to be made better."  If you're happy, then great.  I think differently, in that I think I will always strive to be better.  I will always reach for that higher apple on the branch, and then get really excited when I grab it.  And sometimes I won't quite get to it.  That just means I have more growing to do.



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Do you want to "just" dominate, or to totally change your sub? (4/12/2007 1:41:40 AM)

I want to dominate by inspiring, not by controlling. I will point out what I feel is generally accepted behavior and, admittedly, there may be adjustments as a relationship deepens. However, if I try to control every little aspect of her life, checking this and that, she is going to depend on me to tell her what to do and will not be able to make a wise decision when something not covered comes up. If I have inspired her, she will be able to make her own decisions and make her own changes if required. That ability she has to see things and do the right thing will be what attracted me to her and I’m not about to lessen the importance of her contribution.



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