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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 7:55:29 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

And for the 2nd or 3rd time on this thread, I'll say it again...

I am one of those from the right who SUPPORTS gay marriage.


Okay.

quote:

And I think they got it wrong but only in their interpretation, not the action.


Okay.

quote:

So Mark...


Marc.

quote:

if you're hating on me because I disagree with their interpretation, it can't be because I don't support gay marriage...I do...it must be because I disagree with their interpretation.


I'm not hating on you. You're the one who keeps slipping yourself underneath that word.

quote:

That would make you the bigot and/or the hater...not me.


It is not bigotry or hatred to disagree with someone. It is bigotry or hatred to advocate and/or work for the denial of rights to others. I don't understand why the distinction eludes you.

Seeing, however, that your disagreement with the Supreme Court would - if given your way - leave Gays without their right to marriage - what is your solution to the problem? How would you go about ensuring that Gays are not denied their civil rights?



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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 7:55:56 PM   
JVoV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Maybe the Gays could, should or would start their own church ? I'm sure there are quite a few priests or whatever in other religions who are gay and would like to support this, so you would have a ready-trained cadre to begin with and to teach others.
To misquote JVoV................you gave me the gun; I'll make my own damn bullets !!


In Orlando, we have the Church of Joy, the Unitarians, and a few nondenominational churches already. I'm not sure which Protestant offshoots would officiate a gay wedding, but that's less important to me than getting a real marriage license in the first place.

It's a shitty day to be a single gay man though. I'll probably eat the whole damn cake.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 8:03:08 PM   
JVoV


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Status: offline 		Also, anybody can get ordained as a minister online in order to officiate marriage ceremonies.

Whereas before, it took a jury to impose a life sentence.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 8:12:37 PM   
LipstickLeuger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Is someone interpreting this ruling as a mandate to force all religions to marry gays? If not why bring it up?

Butch


That seems to be a general consensus currently, and a corner stone of the 'against gay marriage' camp. Northern mentioned something to this effect in his post as well.





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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 8:13:37 PM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		Time for bed.

It has been an awesome day.

Congratulations to all those who have fought the good fight for human dignity.

It has been awesome watching all the joyful celebrations.



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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 11:28:53 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DungeonDaddy67
Gays may now have "Marriage" But How many Churches do you really think are going to allow the wedding? Catholics have said NO, The Southern Baptist Church has said no way in the world!

Unless its something like Lutheran, or Unitarians or maybe some off brand religion. Most Christians, Jews, and Muslims are deeply Opposed to gay marriage. I don't see that they are going to make it stick.

I see this as people buying a gun but being refused Bullets!


No church is being forced to hold a gay marriage if that is their religious viewpoint. Those churches are welcome to wed whom they wish. However, most Americans are not interested in the church's views on marriage. Subsequently, there are many places for gay people to get married that have nothing to do with a religious building. Also, at a time when many churches are facing thinning crowds, higher costs of repairs, and a general dislike by the communities they are in; they would do well to rethink their philosophy. Since their hatred and bigotry are costing them!

Unfortunately for you, its going to stick. That is what the US Supreme Court ruling was all about. In about ten to fifteen years, most people will not even think about gay marriage in America. Just like most don't talk about interracial marriages. Or marriages between two religions. Or marrying someone that is an atheist or agnostic. In a generation, young high school students will laugh at the notion that gay marriage was a problem, since many of them might have parents that are, or know someone that is gay.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 11:33:26 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Out of curiosity, did you MISS this part: I do not think that marriage is a right. It is a contract. Which means it should fall under contract law. Anyone 18 or older that has not been deemed unfit by a judge should be able to enter into a contract.


Your allowed to think marriage is not a right. I disagree with you. As I pointed out, that marriage offers much more than just a legal or religious viewpoint. Contract law states that both parties must be in agreement on terms and be above the age of 18. If they are not above that age, they must have the consent of their parents or other legal guardian(s). As it stands with things right now, a gay couple does not need to go to a judge to determine if they are fit to be married.

Why all the hatred towards gay people, btw?



Or do you just not understand what those words mean?


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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/26/2015 11:37:03 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I understand your opinion however, Justice Kennedy is saying it is a basic right and therefore guaranteed under the Constitution. I find it hard to understand how some Republicans and fewer Democrats that believe in basic human rights don't agree. It seems against their tenets when it comes to governing.
Butch


How is it a basic right?

I agree with Aylee that it would come under the authority of the States, and not the Federal Government. To be clear, I have no problem with homosexuals having all the same options as heterosexuals. I support allowing gay marriage.

If it is a "basic human right" for a gay couple to marry, is it going to be illegal for a church to refuse to perform a gay marriage?



I agree, but when you all talk of inalienable rights I think the exact the same thing. You don't have any rights, none whatsoever, just ways of doing things and ideas and these things may or may not become the social norm.

I don't think it is right to force the Catholic Church to marry people. It's a private institution. I'm not a catholic, and I'm not a fan of Catholicism, but I just can't see how and why it is a good thing to force them to go against their collective conscience.

It would seem to me that this would be a direct violation of their first amendment rights, the government cannot dictate theological stands to a church. That would clearly be establishment of religion.


Lets consider the basis of your argument.

A gay couple wishes to marry at a church that does not do gay marriages. Should they be forced?

The answer would be 'tough luck' for the gay couple. The people of that church do hold a 1st amendment right not to hold such a wedding ceremony there.

Yet, there are plenty of other places to get married. On a beach, in a park, different organizations, someone's house, etc. There are even some actual church-like buildings that will do it. Heck, Las Vegas is open for getting married!

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 12:43:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		Texas preacher Rick Scarborough threatened to set himself on fire if the Supreme Court ruled in favour of marriage equality. While he is certainly entitled to his opinion, I wonder if this man of the cloth is a man of his word and going to deliver on his promise. FWIW, I hope the idiot doesn't do it.

Hopefully now that issue of marriage equality is permanently settled, much of the hyperbolic nonsense thrown about by opponents of human rights for queers will cease. Once again we have seen the right stay true to its record of tooth-and-nail opposition to any advance in human rights for minorities (of whatever hue) anywhere. The right's lamentable record in this area is that it has opposed every human rights initiative everywhere to ensure women and minorities achieve equal protection under the law, and an equal chance in life. And each time the right has found itself on the wrong side of history. On issue after issue, in country after country.

Is the right going to learn the obvious lesson, or are they going to continue consigning themselves to history's dustbin? How much longer can the many right wingers who believe in human rights for all stay silent about the backwoodspeople in their ranks, or about their candidates pandering for the votes of bigots and racists? Isn't it time that the sane forces on the right ditched this unwanted and unwelcome baggage?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/27/2015 1:17:43 AM >

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 1:48:03 AM   
JVoV


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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 4:03:30 AM   
epiphiny43


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Status: offline 		For a more complete quote of why the SCOTUS really accepted that gay marriage was not an attack on an institution held in esteem by many, but a right held by all Americans:
❝No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice, and family. In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were. As some of the petitioners in these cases demonstrate, marriage embodies a love that may endure even past death. It would misunderstand these men and women to say they disrespect the idea of marriage. Their plea is that they do respect it, respect it so deeply that they seek to find its fulfillment for themselves. Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization’s oldest institutions. They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law. The Constitution grants them that right.
— Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy in Obergefell v. Hodges, granting marriage equality as a constitutional right. (via englishprof)

Word


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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 4:40:31 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

while I am sure that some of the folks against gay marriage are actually as you describe them, I doubt they represent the majority.


Oh, I'm sure that many of the people against Gay marriage are kind to puppies and other heart warming things. So what? Their desire to deprive others of happiness is still wrong.

quote:

There are a lot of people who honestly think it's against God's wishes


Irrelevant.

quote:

and they want to please them.


Yeah, that is much of the problem - people wanting to please their phony - and, quite frankly, psychotically sadistic - god.

quote:

And the fact that others see their God as an imaginary friend doesn't change jack shit.


Actually it does. Freedom of religion means freedom from religion (it is impossible to have to former without the later). That means religious people do not get to impose their religion on others. That means no creationism bullshit in the public school science classes, that means legalized abortion and that means legalized gay marriage. Are you seriously advocating that society be based upon delusion rather than reality?

quote:

It doesn't mean you can disregard their belief


Yes I can. That's what freedom means. I can disregard anyones belief if I so choose. I disregard people's beliefs all the time. So do you. So does everybody. I don't really give a shit what people believe as long as it doesn't impact on the rights of myself or others. People can use their freedom of speech to whine about people exercising their rights if they want to. I don't care. They can use their freedom of religion to pray to their god to smite the people who dare to love each other or who teach evolution. That don't bother me at all. I will call them on their bullshit when I so desire but that is just me exercising my freedom - I in no way advocate the denial of their rights.

But when they go past mere words and cross over into actions, when they try to restrict the rights of others by denying them marriage or a medical procedure or scientific truth, then they go to far. Then the are violating the rights of others. And on that I do not give a flying two fisted fuck what their god had to say about it. Anyone who seeks to violate the rights of others - and I don't give a shit if they knit sweaters for homeless kittens - is a fucking bully. If their feelings are hurt because some people became freer today despite their best efforts to deny them happiness - good. Fuck their feelings.

quote:

because that makes YOU the bully.


Bullshit. Standing up to bullies does not make one a bully. This is just more projection bullshit.


No they don't get to impose their beliefs on others. That is why scotus ruled like they did. But they do get to keep their beliefs and no amount of whining from folks like you is going to change that. You can keep referring to them as bullies as much as you want and keep painting them all in the same light. I will continue to think of you as a bigot when you do. That's how things work.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 4:41:53 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Here's a little something:

A recent Gallup poll found that 60 percent of Americans — an all-time high — support extending the same rights and privileges to same-sex marriages as traditional ones.

That figure included "37 percent of Republicans, 64 percent of independents, and 76 percent of Democrats," as we reported last month. And it included all age groups except for one: those 65 and over 65.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/06/26/417717613/supreme-court-rules-all-states-must-allow-same-sex-marriages

Hmmmm...37% of Republicans support gay marriage. I guess not all of us on the right are "haters".
24% on the left do NOT support gay marriage. "Haters" on the left...who could have imagined it?





Now, now, don't try to confuse them with facts.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 4:44:29 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DungeonDaddy67

Gays may now have "Marriage" But How many Churches do you really think are going to allow the wedding? Catholics have said NO, The Southern Baptist Church has said no way in the world!

Unless its something like Lutheran, or Unitarians or maybe some off brand religion. Most Christians, Jews, and Muslims are deeply Opposed to gay marriage. I don't see that they are going to make it stick.

I see this as people buying a gun but being refused Bullets!



Well this is one way http://mccchurch.org/ and notaries are another.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 4:48:22 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

CD, it is not hate to express a dissenting position to yours.

If we are to accept that expressing a dissenting position is hate, then how must we rate active entrenched opposition to another sector of society obtaining their human rights? Genocidal? Psychopathic?


Your right it's not so maybe folks should stop calling Christians haters just because they disagree with gay marriage.

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 5:03:09 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I understand your opinion however, Justice Kennedy is saying it is a basic right and therefore guaranteed under the Constitution. I find it hard to understand how some Republicans and fewer Democrats that believe in basic human rights don't agree. It seems against their tenets when it comes to governing.
Butch


How is it a basic right?

I agree with Aylee that it would come under the authority of the States, and not the Federal Government. To be clear, I have no problem with homosexuals having all the same options as heterosexuals. I support allowing gay marriage.

If it is a "basic human right" for a gay couple to marry, is it going to be illegal for a church to refuse to perform a gay marriage?



I agree, but when you all talk of inalienable rights I think the exact the same thing. You don't have any rights, none whatsoever, just ways of doing things and ideas and these things may or may not become the social norm.

I don't think it is right to force the Catholic Church to marry people. It's a private institution. I'm not a catholic, and I'm not a fan of Catholicism, but I just can't see how and why it is a good thing to force them to go against their collective conscience.


It would seem to me that this would be a direct violation of their first amendment rights, the government cannot dictate theological stands to a church. That would clearly be establishment of religion.


I suppose to me the Catholic Church doesn't have a right to anything. Clearly anything that can be taken away from you is not a right, and the Catholic Church could, in theory, be shut down tomorrow.

But, purely from a reasonable stand point, the Catholic Church is surely a private institution, one that raises it's own funds; and considering the idea of marriage is central to its purpose then it has to have discretion over these matters. Although I think this question has been answered by the poster who said they will not be forced to.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe for a second that anyone of gay orientation is any different to me except I like cabbage and they like cauliflower - a matter of personal taste - but the answer isn't to force people to agree with you.

As for the bullying matter, it's not bullying. They have a view and others can take it or leave it. I could have been religious, possibly, because my parents and grandparents are, but for me the idea that actually we're not all equal and God is not there for everyone, well I couldn't get over that hurdle on point of principle.

I like religion; I like much of what Christianity has to say; I think moral guidance is generally a good thing. But, they lost me when the message of charity only applied to some. So, I chose to leave it.


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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 5:21:32 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

but the answer isn't to force people to agree with you


Don't you think this statement a little ironic? After all the religious right, and Republicans in general, BEFORE this ruling were forcing gays and their supporters to agree with them. The difference, and the majority of the Supreme Court points out, granting the same rights to gays takes no right away from the religious right and their supporters.

Butch

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 5:23:27 AM   
Lucylastic


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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 5:40:37 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

No they don't get to impose their beliefs on others. That is why scotus ruled like they did. But they do get to keep their beliefs


When have I ever said otherwise?

quote:

and no amount of whining from folks like you is going to change that.


What whining? The only whining I hear is from those who can't accept the fact that they are not being allowed to discriminate against others.

quote:

You can keep referring to them as bullies as much as you want and keep painting them all in the same light.


I don't paint them. They paint themselves when they choose to deny other their civil rights.

quote:

I will continue to think of you as a bigot when you do.


I do not doubt that in the slightest. That is because you and others continually fail to make the distinction between the right to have an opinion with the "right" to have your opinion respected. I respect people's right to hold any opinion they want. I respect people's right to voice their opinion. I am under no obligation to actually respect their opinion. Nor am I under any obligation to keep my disagreement to myself. Too, I am under no obligation soft peddle my disagreement.

Anybody who has the unmitigated gall - the arrogant, condescending, unmitigated gall - to declare to another person that they may not enjoy the full pleasure of human dignity because . . . whatever dumb fuck reason they have . . . is a bully and a bigot. My calling then on that does not make me one in return.

This is another distinction you fail to make. People like the christian fundies discriminate against people for immutable characteristics like skin color or sexual orientation. They seek to destroy the happiness of others because they think their god disapproves of them.

I, on the other hand, am engaging in criticism, satire and yes, even mocking, but my words in no way discriminate against the fundies (they don't have to listen). My words in no way prevent the fundies from exercising their rights.

The even more critical difference is that I am criticizing certain groups not upon immutable characteristics but on choices they have made. A gay person does not choose to be gay. A fundie does choose to hate gays.

They can choose different. I hope some day they do. Until that day . . .

Fuck 'em.

quote:

That's how things work.


In your world . . . yes.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 6/27/2015 5:42:08 AM >

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RE: SCOTUS rules gay marriage legal in all states! - 6/27/2015 5:59:56 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		It's a very odd world where someone becomes a bully for advocating for human rights for everyone, according to the people who oppose granting those rights, or seek to excuse those whose oppose the principle that human rights are for all humans.

That is most certainly NOT how things work in the real world. It's precisely the other way around.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/27/2015 6:08:16 AM >

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